Berre

Someone on the forum advised me to rephrase the titel of a former thread, in order to draw the attention of decal expers. Thanks for this advise. Hope to get useful replies now.

This week I finished restoring my wife's Koga Miyata for which I bought a set of (original), rather expensive decals.

Now here's my problem: I have no experience whatsoever on applying decals; I really would hate to spoil them. The official KOGA dealer who sold them to me could not help me out. He has never applied decals himself.

Google got me confused. I understand different sorts of decals exist; all needing a different approach and different handling.

My set of Koga decals looks like the "wet" type to me, but I could be wrong. They show like "mirror" view, though the side that should be in contact with the frame is not sticky. Unlike vinyl stickers, there is no layer to be peeled off.

The (paper) back side has cross marks for alignment printed on. Is there a way to find out what I am dealing with?

I wonder how they should be transferred. Should they be soaked first? Should they stay on the paper layer while transferring? Can they be slided to the correct position while wet? Or should they land on the right spot from the first attempt?

The top tube decal is about 15 inch long and it looks complicated. That one may prove to be very tricky to the decal newbie that I am.

Finally, I wonder if I should spray a layer of clear coat, as far as I ever may arrive at transferring them.

Any help or info will be very much appreciated.

unworthy1

A picture might really tell for sure, but sounds like you don't have vinyl "peel-n-stick" decals, so that would leave either water-slide or "rubdown" type. My guess is that they are water-slide, since that seems more likely for a major manufacturer. If so, yes you want to soak them in plain water until they release from the carrier paper, but not so long that they float off the paper. It helps to make some sort of guide on the tube so help position (like masking tape) and wet down the tube area with plain water plus just a tiny drop of dish detergent. Carefully slide the wet decal onto the wet area of the tube, you should be able to move them around just a bit on the film of water before they grab. Once correctly positioned blot them very lightly with a paper towel or lint-free cloth. Allow them to *completely* dry before clear-coating them, and clear coat is required for long-term protection, they will scrape or scratch off if left uncoated.

dbakl

I'd guess they're pressure sensitive: they rubdown in place. Carefully position, burnish in place, lift carrier sheet. Waterslides would be printed right reading.

They will probably be fragile once installed and will need clear coating.

Berre

Thank you for these replies.

Since uncertainty rules, I guess I'd better be patient and wait till monday, so I'll give the KOGA dealer a call. He promised to sort things out with the manufacturer.

unworthy1

if they are rubdowns (as dbaki thinks) there should be a slight tackiness to the surface that would go on the tube. These usually use a wax-based adhesive or something better than wax, but the inks are actually lacquer. They are very durable as far as weather (sun, rain, wind) but can be easily scratched off so need to be top-coated and the clearcoat must be lacquer friendly (NO acetone or lac thinner) or they will MELT.

stronglight

I'd definitely wait to make certain what you are dealing with.

Although it is probably unlikely, and I don't mean to make you paranoid, I should warn of yet another type of decal which has no adhesive at all - either sticky or "dry" (as found on a water-slide transfer).

These are "varnish applied" decals, and they are most often found as original transfers (or factory replacements) for some older bikes. They are really meant for experienced professionals to apply, and they are basically rather fussy for a novice to deal with. They would require attaching the transfer directly to a still wet painted finish. The "backing" paper is actually on the "face" side of the decal. Once applied, the face-paper is finally soaked to remove it from the decal now permanently transferred to the frame. This leaves what ultimately looks like a finely hand painted decal on the surface. These are very nice as a completed transfer since they lack the more common clear surround backings which extend a bit past the edges of the transfer (as you often find on water-slide decals). However they are really quite awkward and unforgiving to work with and need to be placed down precisely as they should finally end up. There would be little chance of sliding them around to reposition them better - which you can do with a water-slide. They are carefully laid on either the final un-dried paint or a still tacky varnished (or clear coated) surface on the frame.

I believe this example was a different type (perhaps water-slide?) however the final overall effect would look very similar.

This entire transfer (which includes the lettered bands at top and bottom) appears to be painted onto the frame. There is no clear backing where the frame color shows through (above and below the diagonal band), so nothing to eventually discolor. The chips on this one show that this frame really should have been top-coated with a clear varnish over this old decal to prevent the sort of normal abrasion which obviously damaged this delicate decal. The Copal Varnish decals were actually quite a bit more permanent and resisted damage (such as the flaking or chipping of this example) about as well as the frame paint of a bicycle would resist scrapes.

Dr.Deltron

Oh, those were always fun!


Until I talked to the decal guy at Steinway Pianos.
On a Steinway, the lettering is either brass inlay or ... varnish on decals!

So to apply them, he said use an Elmers Glue Stick! (instead of varnish)
Wait a day & clear on over them.
And he was pretty adamant about Elmer's, and not just any ol' glue stick.

This works for easier adhesion, but still doesn't allow for any repositiioning.
You just have to have an eye for getting them on right the first time.

Berre

Thank you again, for the extensive input.

I examined the decals again (in bright day light.)

The surface feels dry as a bone, no tackiness. Fortunately, it does not catch any dust. Though, the actual graphics area looks more shiny than the non-graphics area. There might be some kind of adhesive (or dissolvable) layer on top of the graphics.

The paper carrier shows printed outlines, marking the edges of the actual graphics areas. This is a handy feature, since the actual graphics are not visible through the carrier paper. Whithout these outlines, it would be impossible to put them on the right spot.

unworthy1

since it has a registration outline on the carrier paper, it sounds more like either a rubdown or the varnish-set type as stronglight has (very completely) described. I wasn't going to even bring up the possibility of varnish decals cause I didn't think it possible that they'd have been in use as late as Koga-Miyata was in business...but, I've guessed wrong before. If they are varnish type, try to find someone expert to apply them for you or buy some cheap ones to practice with (and try Dr. D's suggestion). Real Copal varnish is nearly impossible to find these days, you may have to get a synthetic substitute (art supplies shop). Best of luck to you!

markwebb

If they are wet type, check out the model railroading web sites for how to apply. There is even a chemical product you can apply to the wet decals after affixing that takes all the air and water out from under them to get them to lay down perfectly. Modell RR sites also discuss in detail other types like dry transfers, etc. They may help.

Doohickie

Totally different approach: by a plastic model, maybe a WWII aircraft. It will likely have insignia decals that are wet-applied. Cut the decals into the different pieces (you don't have to trim them close), and then put them in water, one at a time. Wait about 3-5 minutes; don't stir them around or anything, just let them sit. Then pull them out and put them on the model; they should be kind of slimy and just slip off the backing paper. If you leave them in the water too long, they will slide off the paper themselves, and then you have the fun of trying to fish them out of the water. Anyway, if you buy a plastic model you can get some experience at recognizing and working with wet-transfer decals before you use the other ones on your bicycle.

Berre

I just called the Koga dealer; he asked the manufacturer. Those decals are ... "wet type". To be soaked in luke warm water. (Not sure about how long they should swimm, though...)

Obviously, these decals need a protective layer of clear coat. I read some horror stories about decals that melted when sprayed with the wrong type of clear coat. Could someone point me to any suitable clear coat brand names? I would really appreciate the experts imput.

luker

They stay in the water until the underlying carrier paper is soaked. Usually about 45 seconds or so. I usually test (gently!) with my finger to see if the decal slides...if it doesn't let it soak a little longer. I use clear polyurethane over the decals to seal, and have never had an issue.

Doohickie

And like I said, if you want to practice, buy a plastic model that has decals. They will be made of the same stuff.

JRrestore

I’ve used Dupli-color automotive clear with great results. There are a couple of ways to deal with this problem. If you just use automotive clear try light thin coats to build a thickness on the decal, letting each coat dry before the next one. The light coats won’t be as “hot” and once you get a few light coats on, you can paint a heavier coat to finish it off. Or if you want to be on the safe side use a product like Bull Dog adhesion promoter. It’s clear and safe to put over the decals. It will also act as a protective barrier when you put the automotive clear over it.

JR.