Help with a Colnago Super
 

Hi there,

been going through lots of threads, and its really confusing me.

I bought an old colnago super (i think) from the classifieds.

I am now trying to identify it.

The previous owner had already re-sprayed it to a horrible red with black on the lugs. And he had no recollection of the original color scheme.

I proceeded to strip all the paint. No chrome whatsoever underneath.

But at the BB, i found a serial number under all the paint.

C800852

and at the rear drop, Colnago G11

Similarly marked on the fork on the steerer tube, and you can just barely make out the columbus dove.

2 top tube braze-ons for the brakes.

1 h20 on the downtube.

pics to follow.

There's not such thing as a meaningful Colnago serial number scheme from that era. It's tempting to believe in the case of that bike that the number on the BB points to 1980, but I think based on the visible details (and assuming under-the-BB cable routing and braze-on front D) the bike is just bit later: 1981-82.

hi, thanks for responding. So the serial numbers don't mean anything huh.

forgot to mention, there isn't a braze on front D. its just a plain seat tube. Requires a clamp on front D.

I thought it would be a early 80s model, so i checked up bulgier.net and came up with this.

any idea why no chrome on my example? Could it be a add-on then?

Let's just say no one's ever been able to make head or tails out of the numbers on Colnagos until later in that decade, and plenty of people have tried. The number on the BB of yours could have been placed there by a subcontractor. I would bet your Colnago is from the same period as the one in that bulgier catalog. I also owned one from that same period myself (maybe it didn't have the derailleur braze-on, I can't recall). Sometimes the presence or absence of chrome is meaningful on Colnagos, other times not. Colnago was selling a lot of bikes at that time, and some don't fit the mold. Mine had a chrome fork.

thanks for the replies picchio.

will be repainting mine a red similar to the catalogue.

Marc5

can you post a photo of the chainstay bridge on your bike?
but based on the photo's above I'd say it's an 1981 frame
due to brake cable guides on top of top tube, and Colnago engraved in chainstays.
In 1982 Colnago changed the cable guides to the bottom of the top tube.
(info courtesy CR list).
Marty

I have the Colnago dating guide saved from the CR list, but it is too long to post here or to PM. Send my your email and I'll forward it to you.

I'm trying ot date one as well and as far as I can tell mines a 1980 model. Yours seems to newer than mine.

If you could post a picture of the rear brake bridge and the chainstay bridge by the BB it would be helpfull.

well here ya go. Thanks for taking a look at it.

OFG..Ihope you dont mind:


from the folks at CR:

Lugs:
1969: Cutouts in all 3 lugs, all clubs are the same size. Note however that
one experienced member recalls differently "I've never seen a Super with
cutouts all the same size. That would be physically impossible anyway,
based on the sizes of the lug tangs."
1970: Cutouts in all 3 lugs, but club in bottom head lug is now larger than
the other lugs.
1971: Cutouts in all 3 lugs, but club in bottom head lug is now larger than
the other lugs.
1972: 3 lugs cutout, all same size.
1973: 3 lugs cutout, all same size. There is general consensus on this too
but note again that an experienced member believes the single cut-out came
earlier; may have been as early as 1972.
1974: Cutout in bottom headlug only.
1975: Cutout in bottom headlug only.
General comments: the "fluffier/bulbous" club cutouts appear on the earlier
bikes. The smaller/leaner cutouts began to show up, give or take, sometime
after 1975.

Fork Crown:
1969: Two holes in each side of crown, crown itself is a sand cast type
crown. Some may also have Vagner forged crown, two holes in sides.
1970: First use of investment cast semi-sloping crown, two holes in each
side.
1971: IC crown, two holes in each side of crown
1972: IC crown, two holes in sides and club in top of each side of crown for
the first time.
1973: IC crown, club on top of each side of crown.
1974: IC crown, club in top of each side of crown.
1975: IC crown, club and "COLNAGO" on top of each side of crown. There were
numerous contributions supporting this but again, a experienced member took
the time to write "this is too early for the *Colnago* in the crown. I
think that came in by 1977 or so. The first generation Mexico's had no
"Colnago" in the crown, and their first year was 1975...earliest possible
year for the Colnago stamp in the crown would be 1976, but I'm betting it
was later than that.

Fork Tangs:
1969: Fork tangs are blank.
1970: Fork tang can be blank and a wide tang as opposed to the typical
narrower ones.
1971: Often blank narrow tangs.
1972: Narrow tangs with two holes, upper hole larger than lower hole.
1973: Some narrow tangs with two holes but now usually with club in them.
1974: Tangs with clubs.
1975: Tangs with clubs

Seat Stay Caps:
Years??: Plain fluted, ??" length
Years??: Plain fluted, ??" length (I think the length changed)
Years:??: Fluted with "COLNAGO" cast along the flute length.

Rear Brake Bridge:
Years??: Round tube w/brazed on washer (facing the brake caliper),
reinforced at seat stays, for nutted brake bolts.
Years??: Round with square/cube area that accepts recessed brake bolt, (did
this have a club in the top?).

Bottom Bracket:
1969: Circular drilled holes pattern in BB shell.
1970: Club cutout in BB shell.
1972: Club cutout in BB shell.
1973: Club cutout in BB shell.
1974: Club cutout in BB shell.
1975: Club cutout in BB shell.

Drop-out's:
1974/75: Sometime between '74 & '75 there should be a change from long
Campag drop-outs to the shorter ones.

Braze On's:
197? & earlier: none except chain stay derailleur cable stop
197? - 197?: Above plus over BB cable guides
197? - 197?: Above plus shift lever mounts
197? - 197?: Above plus one set DT water bottle mounts
19?? - 19??: Above plus ST water bottle mounts
1976/77: Above plus first appearance of two TT brake cable guides (note that
the "Colnago" cast into the fork crowns definitely happened before the
addition of TT brake cable braze-ons).

Decals:
1968/69: The playing-card-style decals appeared on frames imported to North
America in 1968 or 1969.
1969: Playing card graphics.
1970: Playing card decals?
1971: Playing card graphics?
1972: Graphics change, now just Colnago on DT and first appearance of head
decal just a club with Colnago underneath.
1973: First appearance of "wreath" decal on seat tube, between the bands.
1975: Another graphics change?
1977/78: Another graphics change?

Chrome:
Generally the Colnago crowns are chromed.
General comments: Sometimes the dropouts are chromed on these early bikes.
This varies. Head-lugs were chromed sometimes also, nearly always on show
bikes..but not confined to them.

Known Original Standard Colors:
1972/73: Turquoise/baby blue
Early/mid 70's: Candy green, candy red, candy blue, Molteni orange, yellow,
mauve metallic, black, silver, white, pearl white, electric blue,
salmon-metallic (similar to Cinelli Rose, but lighter), light purple
metallic.
General comments: some wrote to advise you could get a Colnago painted
nearly any color you can imagine.

Known variations:
With Colnago in the earlier years there are a few slight variations
possible, mainly in the fork tangs. One list member has a '74 with no fork
tangs at all. He also had a '74 that had a club in the
bottom headlug and the SEAT lug only, none in top headlug (he suspects a
stray leftover cutout seat lug). Another member also knows of an original
'72 track bike with road blades in a Vagner crown and no chrome. Finally
two list members have/had ~1975 frames where the crowns were painted, not
chromed.

Mexico notes:
Early first-generation Mexico's looked just like older Supers, except for
the thinner tubing.

Now that's a beautiful frame. So many details...

Not at all, but that's only about half. I sent the OP the entire thing.

You bring up a good point. When I was trying to date mine I came across the long CR guide and a much shorter more concise guide which I cant find.

I came across both in the question section of an ebay ad. apparently, once an auction closes the questions disappear.

Part 2: credit goes to Chuck Schmidt for putting this together.

This is incorrect. You may be thinking of the BB cable routing.
As Chuck says (and as a lot of folks fail to read), the Super timeline is plus or minus a year, and it's also tentative. But I think given what we do know, my initial guess was right on target: 1981-82.

The shorter guide was probably Eric Elman's; it's more tentative than Chuck's, which was an attempt to improve on it. It's still posted at 43bikes. Post or shoot me some pics of yours and I'll try to help, and I can run it by a couple of other Colnago owners too. There's some disagreement about Chuck's guide among the cognoscenti as well.

Thanks for the info guys, excellent help.

at least i know how to restore it to!

Regards

marc5

well it was cable routing wasn't it??? ha.
least I got that right, way to early to be trying to sound like I know what
I'm talking about.

Marty

I'd agree with Marty, round about '81 - very similar to my current one (had a '77 before this one)
The very early 'Saronni' type Supers (early '80 and later...) had no chrome on the main frame or stays, just a full chrome fork. from about '82 on, the right side chain stay was chromed, then later both sides...
But that was also 'variable'. That was about the time when most of Italy was considered Colnago 'Family' and so deemed OK to help with the production... If it was a steel pipe and wasn;t destined for a FIAT plant, the Colnago folks had 1st dibs on it...:innocent:
That fork crown also speaks of '80-81 models. much later and the flatter fork crowns made way for the 'lighter' appearing semi-sloping crown which followed the fork tube contours... I have a pic somewhere of that...
I would say that the cable guide position was variable, dependin on which 'cousin' was wielding the torch... I have one (master) and have seen plenty of Colnagos, mixed models, all the way into the mid 80's (86) with the 2 cable guides run on top.
I know both the east coast and SoCal saw some weird **** with Colnago decals...

That sloping crown starts in about 1983, and is accompanied on most of the bikes I've seen by the flat (rather than fluted) seatstay tops.

I have an 81/82 super that has exactly the same details as yours. It has a full chrome fork, right chainstay and rear dropouts. Your fork was chromed by looking at the steerer tube. It has been stripped by the looks of it, not unusual before a re-paint because the chrome on these bikes is lousy.

vjp

Chrome Rear Drops faces and right chainstay - I'd call this one on bulgier.net an '82ish... or maybe '83

your chainstay bridge - just like my very early '80...
mine also has no chrome, except for full chrome fork
if you want to see what 'Saronni Red' looks like, at least after aging for 29 years, lemme know :lol:
man, they had crappy paint jobs back in those years... surprisingly though, things didn't rust as badly as Reynolds 531 frames do. Must be something in the Columbus tube composition, or maybe just my sweat...

interesting...
from the guide posted above...
"1980 -- Fluted seat stay caps engraved COLNAGO and straight seat
stays (no longer biconical)
1980 -- Brake bridge with cast square boss for recessed brake bolt
----
1981 -- Chain stay bridge is small spool shape (no longer tube)
----
1982 -- Chain stays stamped COLNAGO on sides
1982 -- Cable routing on underside of bottom bracket"

mine, (bought new by me in mid-80 direct from distributor...)
has: biconical fluted seatstays engraved Colnago..., Brake Bridge with square boss, spool shaped chain bridge... >cable routing UNDER the BB<...
plain chainstays with 'chrome' film over the right chain stay...

like I said, there was no real set 'model' spec. just what they had on-hand at the moment the torch was lit.

I'm guessing 1980 due to a combination of the recessed and squared rear brake bridge and round chanstay bridge but I'll defer to the experts.

Ask and you shall receive:

(I apologize for the dirtyness and Shimano components. I picked it up Saturday afternoon and haven't touched it yet.)

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...o/DSC02190.jpg

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...o/DSC02185.jpg

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...o/DSC02184.jpg

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...o/DSC02187.jpg

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...o/DSC02188.jpg

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...o/DSC02189.jpg

OK, but now you're contradicting yourself - you said in your pervious post that the flatter crown "speaks of '80-81 models," and now you want to push that all the way to '83. Bulgier gives '81 as the date for that catalog, BTW.

This bike is an example of why you can't attribute neat, year-end changes to frame details - it doesn't fit the timeline. It's a 'tweener. The absence of "Colnago" in the caps should indicate late 70's according to the timeline, but the block bridge says circa 1980 or later. Lots of these bikes that don't neatly fit the timeline exist - it's easy enough in this case to say 1979-80 and be pretty much on the money, given the coexistence of two details that should be chronologically separated (according to one theory, anyway).