Well, I posted this in the road forum to no avail. I know you folks like your metal, so here's my question:

I am looking for an 853 frame and I had a poprad years ago and really liked it. So, I want to get back on the Lemond geo with an exclusively road ride.

I am wondering, are all of the LeMond frames in the same material (853) basically the same? What are the big differences in the line up? I know the components are drastically different, but is this the issue with the variance in pricepoint?

If a Nevada City (853), a Buenos Ares (853), and a Zurich (853) are nearly the same frame... well, you know, I could work out some component issue from the parts bin.

Thanks,
zgjd

This is a good question. I've been coveting pre-Trek Lemond's on the bay and was also wondering what the differences between their various 853 frames are.

I believe there were some variations in the geometry dimensions and angles between some of the models.
I sure wish I had some of the sales literature from back then.

I might be wrong, but wasn't the Nevada City more of a crit bike and the Reno more of a road race geometry? Maybe my memory is just remembering the advertising and not the geometry.

I'm particularly curious about the Buenos Aires and the Zurich. They seem to show up for auction as framesets regularly. I looked up the '02s: BikePedia says the BA is a road/tri bike. , as is the Zurich. The Zurich was the more expensive of the two....different configurations built on the same frame, perhaps?


2002 LeMond Buenos Aires





Bicycle Type:Road race & triathlon
Sugg Retail: $1,649.99
Weight: Unspecified
Sizes: 47cm, 49cm, 51cm, 53cm, 55cm, 57cm, 59cm, 61cm
Colors: Red/Silver


Frame & Fork Frame ConstructionTIG-welded
Frame Tubing Materia Reynolds 853 double butted
Fork Brand & Model ICON Carbon Classic
Fork Material Carbon fiber composite w/chromoly steerer, aero crown
Rear Shock Not applicable

Components
Component Group Shimano Ultegra
Brakeset Shimano Ultegra Dual Pivot brakes, Shimano Ultegra STI Dual Control levers Shift LeversShimano Ultegra STI Dual Control
Front Derailleur Shimano Ultegra
Rear Derailleur Shimano Ultegra SS
Crankset Shimano Ultegra, 39/53 teeth
PedalsShimano PD-M515 SPD
Bottom Bracket Shimano BB-5500, 109.5mm spindle
BB Shell Width 68mm English
Rear Cogs 9-speed, 12 - 25 teeth
ChainShimano HG-72, 1/2 x 3/32"
Seatpost Aluminum micro-adjust
Saddle Selle San Marco New Millennium
Handlebar 3T T.H.E.
Handlebar Extensions Not included
Handlebar Stem 3T T.H.E.
Headset 1 1/8" threadless Cane Creek C1

Wheels
Hubs Bontrager Select
Rims Bontrager Select, 20-hole/24-hole
Tires 700 x 23c Continental Ultra 3000
Spoke Brand Stainless steel
Spoke Nipples Unspecified





2002 LeMond Zurich




Bicycle TypeRoad race & triathlon
Sugg Retail $2,099.99
WeightUnspecified
Sizes47cm, 49cm, 51cm, 53cm, 55cm, 57cm, 59cm, 61cm ColorsBlue/Silver

Frame & Fork
Frame Construction TIG-welded
Frame Tubing Material Reynolds 853 Pro
Fork Brand & Model ICON OCLV Air Rail
Fork Material Carbon fiber composite w/aluminum steerer, aero crown
Rear Shock Not applicable


Components
Component Group Shimano Ultegra
Brakeset Shimano Ultegra Dual Pivot brakes
Shimano Ultegra STI Dual Control levers
Shift Levers Shimano Ultegra STI Dual Control
Front Derailleur Shimano Ultegra, clamp-on
Rear Derailleur Shimano Ultegra SS
Crankset Shimano Ultegra, 39/53 teeth
Pedals Not included
Bottom Bracket Shimano BB-6500, 109.5mm spindle
BB Shell Width 68mm English
Rear Cogs 9-speed, 12 - 25 teeth
Chain Shimano CN-HG92, 1/2 x 3/32"
Seatpost Aluminum micro-adjust
Saddle Selle San Marco Era
Handlebar 3T Forgie XL
Handlebar Extensions Not included
Handlebar Stem 3T Forgie XL
Headset 1 1/8" threadless Cane Creek S-2

Wheels
Hubs Bontrager Race Lite
Rims Bontrager Race Lite, 20-hole/24-hole
Tires 700 x 23c Continental Grand Prix 3000 kevlar
Spoke Brand Stainless steel, bladed
Spoke Nipples Aluminum nipples

I have a Nevada City model. It was the lower end of those three models and was originally equipped with Shimano Sora. Buenos Aires and Zurichs show up as framesets more because their higher end components get kept.

Was there any connection between Schwinn Pelotons and these Lemonds? I had an 853 Peloton and the angles and construction were nearly identical to the Zurich....just curious.

I really doubt it. The late nineties Pelotons had exactly the same geometry as the Match built lugged 853 Paramounts and the Serotta built Ti Paramounts, and that geometry was engineered by Schwinn. There was no relationship between Lemond and Scott Sports (the owner of Schwinn at that time) that I'm aware of, so my guess is that any similarity was coincidental.

Here's the 1999 Paramount/Peloton/Circuit geometry (too bad the proofreaders couldn't spell Paramount):

This is the meat of my Q. If the NC is the same frame (even with a bit different geo) then I will very likely buy one for a build. BUT if the 853 tubing is a lesser quality than, say, the 853 on the Zurich or BA it may change the conversation.

So, I guess I am more interested in the tubing used. All the same per production year? Not all 853 tubing is identical (right?).

BTW how do you like the Nevada city?

edit: C&V rules! Thanks.

All Reynolds 853 tubing has the same chemical composition, physical properties, and quality control, although the tubes vary in butt profile, diameter, length, and wall thickness, depending on the application.

The quality of a frame built with Reynolds 853 will vary depending on the skill of the framebuilder, but not the quality of the tubes.

The material quality of 853 tubes does not vary, but the subjective quality of the designers' specifications, in the opinion of the rider, will. Although I guess that's kind of what Scooper just said.

This may not be true for all years . When Lemond was making exclusively steel frames2001 2002 2003.
All frames were listed as having the same geometry. I would say all 853 frames in this era are the same. The Nevada City & possibly others were 553. Some may be a mix of 553 & 853.

That is very interesting, I did not know this, thanks for the information. So, the Pelotons were not hand-built I suppose but still, the only other difference would have been the lugs. I really loved how that bike rode...

That's right; the Peloton was TIG-welded in asia, while the Paramounts were U.S. built.

For those interested, here is the range of 853 tubes. Framebuilders have a variety of tubes to choose from depending on the size and weight of the rider, the type of riding, whether the bike is a road bike, cross bike, track bike, MTB, etc.

Who makes a mass-market (ie: cheap) 853 frame today? One that has some nice racing geometry?

Again, thanks for all this input Scooper, this is a very informative thread...

You can keep an eye out for an older Fuji Roubaix Pro or Marseille on eBay. I was happy with my RP, I'm building a replacement up on a Marseille frame.

Possibly one difference is the material of the forks and/or the stays. Possibly the high end had all 853 and others didn't.

My Nevada City has a CroMoly fork. The 853 sticker indicates the Reynolds tubing is only the Main tubes.

Jamis Eclipse? https://www.jamisbikes.com/usa/thebik...ipse_spec.html

Not cheap, though...

OT

Seems like a well-thought-out off-the-shelf ride. Never owned a Jamis, but they often seem to put out sensibly built bikes.

Significant price jump on the 2009 ($3100 retail)--though this seems to be a trend across the board (went into the LBS the other day and actually looked at the bikes on hand--usually an uninspiring sea of Specialized and Cannondale. I was stunned to see that you couldn't touch a 105 equipped bike for less than $2000+ ... an odd trend given the times).