Dawes-man

A few months back I posted a couple of general shots of this frame and asked if anyone could identify it but without any luck. A couple of folks thought it might be a Mercian but Mercian said 'No'. I've just been up to see the friend who bought it off ebay and had the chance to take some more 'intimate' photos, pasted below.

I rode the bike briefly and while no expert (far from it) it felt to me both quick steering and soft over rough ground, due perhaps to it being made of Reynolds 531? The seat tube is 27.2 and it has 40.7cm chainstays. There is a frame number on the outside of the right Campagnolo dropout. The fork ends are Campagnolo too. There's an F on the underside of the BB. And that's all there is. Oh, and the lug points have been thinned, indicating to me that care was taken in the frame's making.

My friend had the forks repaired by Mercian and had them drill the brake mounting hole to take Allen-key Campagnolo calipers. He drilled the rear bridge himself but the bike was made to take nutted calipers. He also painted the frame with a rattle-can with a Toyota colour.

What do you think? Any comments regarding any aspect of this frame will be appreciated...















There is an album of photos of this bike at:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/2298367...7617824097302/

cudak888 

Hmm - my first guess would be Raleigh Professional Mark V, especially with the BB cutout, headlugs, and fork crown - except that I wouldn't expect such nice construction out of Raleigh.

-Kurt

unterhausen

I wonder if the painter filed it a little? And the paint is pretty thick, might be hiding some nonsense.

Dawes-man

You know, I think you've ID'ed it, Kurt. I've just had a look at a couple of Professionals on the web and they look the same to me.

Hugo

Dawes-man

Yes, I know! I think my friend just painted over the old paint with the minimum of sanding down the old. He told me yesterday he hated sanding.

Hugo

cudak888 

I'd be entirely certain about it if it was not for the nice quality of the construction, and the subtle seatstay end caps. Professional MKV's were better known for having much more beefy caps, plus Raleigh's typically sloppy-as-hell lugwork.

-Kurt

Dawes-man

I forwarded these links to my friend:
https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting
and
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/retroral...ofessional.jpg

He reckons it's a good match except the Professional didn't have cable guides and had different seat stay eyes and rear brake bridge. He also says there's no sign of there ever having been a head badge riveted on.

I've written to him saying, "Is it possible that the paint was not original when you got the frame? If it wasn't perhaps the cable guides were added, the seat stay eyes filed and the headbadge holes filled at a re-paint. How is the bridge different?"

USAZorro

Nice construction on a Professional is no surprise. An "F" serial number on a MK V though... unprecedented.

Dawes-man

Yes, and the F is the only thing on the BB. I've looked at the serial number site that cudak888 kindly provide a link for and it doesn't say anything about numbers on the outside of the right hand dropout as is the case with my friend's bike.

USAZorro

The doco refers to what was put on the "good" frames - and I would say that you have a "good" one. Out of curiosity, what is on the dropout? I've heard of late 60's Grand Prix's and similar having serial numbers stamped there, but from 1966 on, Raleigh was quite consistent with the stamping location on their better models.

Dawes-man

I got it wrong... the serial number is on the inside of the rear dropout, not the outside. It says either TMW127 or JMW127.

What do you mean by "doco"?

cs1

My Waterford has identical Henry James lugs. Problem is Waterford stamps the S/N on the BB. Your BB is cutout. It could be Waterford made for another mfg. I'm almost 99.9% that it's a Waterford though.

cs1

I would call Richard Schwinn and read him the S/N. He might be able to help. Good luck.

mkeller234

That fork crown is very different from my Mk V Raleigh professional, everything else looks right though even the brake bridge.

mkeller234

The bottom bracket cut outs on your frame looks like a pro too:

USAZorro

Might be inspired by Raleigh, but the serial number and font point to it not being one.

doco - the online documentation in Bulgier.net and on Sheldon Brown's site.

cudak888 

True, but the crown the OP's machine has was ostentatiously common on everything from the Grand Prix up to the International. I'm also a firm believer in the concept that virtually anything from Raleigh could have ended up with substitutions deviating from the norm, from factory - including lugs.

That said - I am still unconvinced of the Raleigh Pro theory.

-Kurt

unworthy1

but the serial number is a big anomoly.
Vagner forkcrowns and even that slotted BB shell show up on so many other makes I think it's inconclusive.
Also note that mkeller's BB shell is welded (seamed) and the OP's does not appear to be. I think the smaller details like the chainstay bridge and quality of brazing are significant.

luker

The parts were all available to any builder. Sort of like building a "Harley" today, I suppose. The location of the serial number and the format would say to me that it was a private build, using all of the same stuff that Raleigh used on the Pro. Which would have almost guaranteed a nice bike.

The location of the serial number is weird - it is certain to be defaced by the axle nuts.

And my Pro, anyway, lacks the cutouts in the brake bridge brazeon's that this bike has...

Dawes-man

Thank you for the suggestion. I sent him a message via the Waterford web site and he very kindly and quickly got back to me saying, "It's not a Waterford but looks like a very nice bike."

I wouldn't hesitate to buy a bike from such a man.