the campy cups say 1.370" x 24 it thats any help in identifying the frame?

That's English threading, so the chances of it being French are very small. Italian could still be a possibility. It could be nearly any other country, too, since English threading has been the most common.

I think those are just ornamentation, like the other lug cutouts.

I notice something that might just lend credence to Roadfan's speculation that this might have been somebody's 'training frame': the two different treatments to the stay ends on the rear triangle. I've not seen both the scalloped treatment (seatstay/dropout) and the rounded (chainstay/dropout) used on the same frame before. Normally one sees one or the other, but not at the same time.

If it indeed does turn out to be a manufacturer frame, I wonder why in the heck they did that?

This is still a sweet rig. I hope you won't have to mess 'round with a stuck seatpost!

well thanks again! the seatpost does seem to be stuck pretty good. i have an alan frame with a stuck seat post i tried everything even taking it to the bike shop. we could get it to rotate but the darn thing will not come off. i hope this isnt going to be the same. this one wont even rotate yet. ps i actually did take it out for a spin last night(nobody could see me) and it did ride great even though the seat was too low(i think it is a 54cm if your interested). i got some more of that gross paint of the fork crowns thinking they may be chrome but they dont seem to be. maybe ill put some old looking merckx decals on it-molteni-what do you think? by the way, what do you mean"training frame"? is that another word for "junker"?

Drillium, good observation!

Joe, by "training frame," I do not mean it's a junker, I think we can lay that to rest.

54 cm - please tell us what you measured - seat tube center to center, seat tube center to top of top tube, seat tube center to top of seat tube lug, or top tube length center to center? And if possible measure to the millimeter. The convention used by the original builder can also be significant.

Many people here and presumably many cyclists have tried their hand at brazing up a frame. There have been a few textbooks (Talbot and Proteus, for 2 examples). I haven't, but considering how I often have to do something several times the first time I try it, I would assume that new framebuilders have each built a few that are not quite masterpieces. Doug Fattic, a master craftsman here in Michigan who learned in England, builds custom, runs a frame building school, and has from time to time taken on an assistant who wants to learn the fine points. Faliero Masi taught his craft to a number of later-influential American builders: Baylis, Howard, and others.

But one can also just buy a book, tools, and materials, and set about following the instructions. This frame could have been one such product. NOT NECESSARILY a junker, it could even be quite good and have complete integrity. But any expectations we would have based on experience with established manufacturers and custom/racing craftsmen would be not applicable.

It's probably not a collectible, even though it may be a great rider.

well actually the only reason i think its a 54 is because thats what most my bikes are and when i sat on it it "felt" like a 54 to me. i know thats a lousy way to measure it but im pretty accurate with my feelings on that. anyway, i did put it on craigslist as i dont really want it at this point. somebody may want it for the parts. i personally have a extra set of nuovo parts so i dont really need another at this time. i guess i never will know who made it. with the stuck seat post it is too small for me at 5'8" and i dont feel like trying to put in hours pulling it out. but if someone puts in the time im sure they might do it

The additional images and the dimensions provided do suggest a personal built bike.

Nice fork crown. with the 27 mm seat post, who knows on the tubing, there are not enough shots of the fork to say suggest if it is Columbus, if it is, then it could be SP and that would point to a 27mm seat post, as could no reaming after brazing, things do distort. On being stuck, I would blame a prior mechanic, perspiration and time.

At this point Joe, from the tenor of your posts over time, keep the parts, sell the frame set. And move on, It will make you feel better for the other investments. I would keep it, redo the paint and have fun with a stealth bike.

From review of the images, it looks like a 72° seat angle and even up to a 74° head angle. With pretty tight rear triangle. The recessed brake mounts point to a bike built it the later 70's at the youngest.

your right. i should keep the parts. as for the frame set i think give it away would be more probable as i dont think anyone would want it. one of these days im going to find that 60s masi ive been looking for.well come to think of it, i had a chance at one for 500.00 but passed it because the paint looked bad. i am still kicking myself for that mistake. i guess you only get one chance at something like that in life at best

this thread makes me head hurt.

anyhow, if you don't want it I'm sure someone on this forum would be happy to buy it. Seems the least you could do considering the help this forum has given you :)

In any event, good luck in your search! BTW, what is it about 60's masi's in general that you're so attracted to? I admittedly don't know much about them so I was just wondering. There must be something really special about them...and they must be hard to identify.

Well, let me know if you decide to sell it. I might be interested - I rather like the frame and the geometry; and I'd rather be on an unknown rattlecanned frame then a Paramount if some cager decides to take a nick out of my frame.

BTW, whoever let that seatpost jam should be shot. I think it's a Superlegerri. That would be a painful one to cut out...

-Kurt

well ill tell you what, anyone out there wants to strip the parts can have the frame. i can take off some of the parts but not the hard stuff. first call first serve. anyway, thanks to everyone on this thread for their help. joe

PM sent

Forgive me for bumping this up, but I figured I'd offer the following extra points, now that I've been working on this frame:

#1. The seatpost is either 26.6mm or 26.8mm. I was able to cut out about 3" worth of the seatpost, but there remains about 3" still in the post. The fact that a 27.0 was jammed in here with no grease explains why the post won't come out - no matter what. Frankly, I think this thing needs the seatpost torched out and replaced (yes, the tube has been nicked from the inside). Excuse the silver Never-Seize grease:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/unkframe_5.jpg

#2. The dropouts are filed-down Campagnolo 1010's with the dropout hanger cut off and re-brazed to match, from the looks of things:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/unkframe_2.jpg

http://www.jaysmarine.com/unkframe_1.jpg

#3. The steerer tube washer slot is facing forwards. Odd, but not unusual.

http://www.jaysmarine.com/unkframe_6.jpg

#4. The original paint is a light metallic orange with a pair of seattube bands very similar to that of a post-1972 Schwinn Paramount. Possibly not original. Upper band sits quite high on the post, lower band sits at a more traditional level, 1/4 up the post from the bottom.

#5. Prugnat seattube ear is threaded on one side, requiring only a binder bolt, no keyed "nut" at the other end.

#5. Those Prugnat lugs have been filed down unbelievably thin, which doesn't particularly correlate the 26.8 theory. However, 26.6 would seem to suggest something else - a Japanese builder, perhaps? Would explain the English threading.

http://www.jaysmarine.com/unkframe_4.jpg

#6. Shot of the BB cutout, just because. Incidentally, there is no sign whatsoever of any stampings or serials - no tubing markings either.

http://www.jaysmarine.com/unkframe_3.jpg

-Kurt

Could you throw up a full frame pic?

Yep - give me 15.

-Kurt

http://www.jaysmarine.com/unkframe_7.jpg

http://www.jaysmarine.com/unkframe_8.jpg

http://www.jaysmarine.com/unkframe_9.jpg

The dark orange is the spray job - the lighter color the original (which has quite a few sandpaper marks through it).

Might have the entire seattube replaced - framebuilder's cost is very reasonable if I take a die grinder and clean the lugs myself.

-Kurt