kirke

I am in the process of building up my 1971 Mercian and just installed a Suntour Ultra-6 14-24 freewheel on my Campy rear hub. I wanted to use an Ultra-6 freewheel to get slightly better gearing options than a 5 speed freewheel.

Problem is, I have a hard time pulling the axle back into the dropout without the 14-tooth cog rubbing/ scratching against the inside of the drive side chainstay right where it attaches the the dropout. Once the wheel is pulled all the way back it clears the chainstay fine, but its really going to scratch up my brand new paintjob!

I know Ultra-6 freewheels have the same spacing between the cogs as 5 speed freewheels, however, is the stack height different? Since the frame was built it 1971 it was undoubtedly intended for use with a 5 speed rear cluster. Will switching to a Suntour New Winner 5 speed freewheel give me the clearance I need so I dont scratch up my frame every time I need to remove my rear wheel? Or maybe an Ultra-6 with a 13 tooth smallest cog?

Any information, insight, or suggestions would be much appreciated!

USAZorro

The problem sounds like the wheel is not adequately dished for the 120mm spacing. It should have 2-3mm more spacing on the right side, and that much less on the left so it won't be so close to the frame. Changing the spacing will require re-dishing the wheel. If you're not comfortable doing that, getting a different wheelset with proper spacing might be a better option.

robertkat

I think you've been mislead. It's my understanding that the Ultra freewheels have a narrower spacing between cogs to achieve a similar stack height of a 5 speed freewheel. As Zorro said, check that the wheel is dished properly and the correct axel spacers are used. I know the info is out there someplace, but you should be able to find recommended measurements as far as the distances from hub center to outside nut for drive and non-drive sides. From what I know, you shouldn't have to do anything special to fit the Ultra. Have you checked the dropout alignment?

kirke

Robert, you are correct. The spacing between cogs on an Ultra-6 freewheel is closer so as to fit the extra cog in the same space as a 5 speed freewheel.

I dont have the know-how to check the dishing on the rear wheel, but I will take it in to the shop tomorrow and see what they can tell me.

Thanks Robert and Zorro.

abarth

I had that problem with one of my flipper. I had to add a spacer on the right size of the axle and dish the rim a little bit more. Not a big deal.

noglider 

Ultra-6 was narrower than regular six but wider than regular five.

pastorbobnlnh 

...and Suntour made regular 126mm spaced 6 speed freewheels, that on first glance, look just like the ultra variety. I have a Suntour spacing guage/tool which I use to measure the distance between the cogs. They are on ebay from time to time.

kirke

Well, I have a five speed freewheel here so I will try swapping them first to see if that solves the problem. If that helps, then I guess I will decide if that one extra cog is worth the trouble of re-dishing. Thanks for the help, y'all.

noglider 

You can add a washer to the right side of your axle to solve the problem. 2 or 3mm should do the trick. This is what I did, plus I filed my frame a bit.

T-Mar

+1. Ultra 6 requires an additional 2mm over a regular 5. The dimension from the freewheel seat to the locknut end will vary, depending on the hub, even though the locknut to locknut spacing is 120mm. Campagnolo, unfortunately, has the narrowest version of this dimension. You'll need to add spacers to the freewheel side. I also suggest you re-centre the axle.

Personally, I'd forget the Ultra 6. I'd be coldsetting the rear triangle for a longer axle and skewer, re-dishing the rim and installing a 7 speed Hyperglide compatible freewheel. It will make a world of difference in the shifting.

noglider 

T-Mar offers good information and advice. Hyperglide is really good.

(Why does it pain me so much to give credit to Shimano?)

kirke

Well, this Mercian build is supposed to be as "period-correct" as possible, so no cold setting for me on this one. I suppose I should be going with Regina, but Suntour freewheels just shift better with a NR rear derailleur. But, I am tempted to just buy a new IRD 5 speed freewheel with the Hyperglide-esque tooth shapes.

TejanoTrackie 

Ignore all the Suntour haters! I have the same setup you describe. Suntour Winner Pro Ultra-6 14-24 on standard Campy Record high flange 120mm hubs with Campy NR RD, Campy DT friction shifters and Campy long horizontal dropouts. I have no problem installing or removing the wheel from the dropouts and it shifts beautifully. If you have questions about your setup, PM me.

sciencemonster

I usually just shift the axle over to the right so just a little is left poking out on he left, add a washer or two tot he right for chainstay clearence, and it's good to go. Redishing the wheel would be great, but I've put that off for months with no problem.

But everything shoudl fit no problem.

abarth

Beside having an extra cog, another benefit of Ultra-6 over the 5 speed freewheel is shorter shifting between cogs. Me like that.

Mike Mills

Nothing shifts better than a 5 speed freewheel when you are using a NR derailleur, especially on a 120mm axle.

The cog spacing makes derailleur positioning less sensitive. It runs quieter and shifts more positively.

You did say you wanted it period-correct, right? 5 Speed is the way to go.

mcgreivey

I have an ST ultra-6 FW on a wheel that used to have a ST 5-speed. I've never been able to get it to shift crisply with the ultra-6. I've tried various chains, changed the chain length, changed the derailleur, adjusted this and that--no joy. The only thing I haven't been able to try is a real ST ultra chain, but good luck finding one. I'll probably put a 5-speed (or maybe a normally-spaced 6-speed) on it again as soon as I can round one up. I was very happy with how the old, broken, discarded ST 5-speed shifted.

Other people have had different experiences, I'm sure, but this is mine.

TejanoTrackie 

I have multiple wheels with ultra-6 and ultra-7 freewheels, using both friction and indexed shifting, and they all shift very well. I am currently using SRAM 8-speed chains (models 8xx) and they work very well. You might want to try a SRAM chain before throwing in the towel. One point I'd make is that the largest sprocket that I use is 26T, so I can't say that an Ultra freewheel will shift as well if you use larger size sprockets.

mcgreivey

Mine is 14-32 or 14-34. That could be part of my trouble.

I've tried that SRAM chain, and a Campy C9 chain (suggested by someone in a thread I posted on this question several months ago). The C9 shifts a hair better than the SRAM. In my case, the best solution would seem to be to get a 5-speed. Though it's nice to have closer spacing, I do need a tall gear.

TejanoTrackie 

The only system I've found that shifts well with those sprocket sizes is Shimano hyperglide, which has shifting ramps. I have hyperglide on my mountain bike with a 11-34 9-speed that shifts flawlessly. The old Shimano Uniglide (twist tooth) shifts no better than Suntour. I have a 14-32 5-speed Uniglide on an old touring bike, and its shifting is pretty clunky.

pastorbobnlnh 

A 6 speed Ultra, 14-32, with a SRAM chain. Shifts fine with Suntour bar ends.


A 7 speed Ultra, 13-34, with a SRAM chain. Shifting with Shimano 7 speed brifters. Shifts fine.


A 6 speed Ultra, 14-32, a SRAM chain. Downtube friction shifters. No problems!


On the last picture, I originally tried a Campagnolo 1st Generation Rally, and it was a horrible experience.

I believe you might be dealing with another issue and not the Ultra and the chain. Any pictures?

T-Mar

We don't hate SunTour. We love them for certain products, such as their slant parallelogram derailleurs and their freewheel bodies. But we also also realize that no vintage freewheel cog, regardless of the brand, will shift as well as a modern, HyperGlide style with a compatible chain. . While your current set-up works well, it would undoubtedly shift even better with HyperGlide.

One other aspect that affects the clearance is how much the inside of the stays (particularly the seat stay) have been relieved and the size of the small cog. The stay would have to be relieved, to run an Ultra 6 with a 14T cog, on an unmodified, 120mm, Campagnolo hub.

jedrider

I have the Ultra 6 installed with smaller cogs, maybe it is a 12, I don't recall. It just clears. I am looking for nice aluminum washers that don't slip to get that extra 1-2 mm spacing to confidently use that small cog.

I would think that I could just drop in a campy 126mm wheelset with 7-speed hyperglide if and when I need new wheels. Coldsetting?? Do I need to do anything special? The steel frame appears to be flexible enough to accomodate those extra 6mm, I would think -- for a old Motobecane.

kirke

T-Mar - I think this, in fact, is my problem. I think there is simply not enough chainstay/seatstay clearance to accept the Ultra-6 with a 14 tooth cog. I have 5 Speed New Winner freewheel with a 13t small cog and I am going to swap them and see if that helps. I will post an update on it.

TejanoTrackie 

I don't dispute that hyperglide works better (see my following post), but it's not an option on an 120mm hub and I'm not interested in spreading my frame. I have a very modern road bike with the latest Dura Ace 10-speed brifters and am fully aware of all the improvements. My point is that ultra freewheels can shift very well, even without slant parallelogram derailleurs.

As to the 14T cog issue, I agree that some relief is needed in the chainstay, but not the seatstay, as the top of the cog is located below the end of the seatstay where it is joined to the dropout. Both my chainstays and seatstays are relieved near the ends, and I could actually fit a 15T on the outside if I wished. I'm using a standard unmodified Campy record 120mm hub.