Hello all, this is the first time for me. I’m asking a big thing here but if someone out there can help I would be very happy. I have an old but quality steel framed bike from the 70-80s. I picked it up in about 1995 in a junk shop in York , England, sporting a do it yourself paint job so no idea who manufactured it. I want to get it resprayed in original colours if possible so wish to probe these mind out there.

The frame is all steel of bronze brazed lug construction. All the lugs are shaped and cut out with an arrowhead design. The tubes (all) are I think double butted as they ring sharply if flicked lightly (columbus or Reynolds)? Braze-ons are few. There are cable guides above the BB stamped CAMPAGNOLO, there are no gear lever lugs but instead there is an arrowhead shaped boss brazed to the top of the down tube to stop band on levers slipping. There are bottle bosses on the seat tube only. The rear drop outs appear similar to campy 1010 long with eyelets. The bottom bracket appears to be English thread, the serial number is 06554 stamped horizontally but upside-down across the front of the BB shell. I think the original colour was cherry red or cerese as it is present within the tubes when bb is removed.

The bike came built with good parts i.e campy pista 1972 headset, 1970s SR apex cranks with unusual drilled chainrings, cinelli stem etc.. it was matched to a Tange full chrome curved blade fork. (possibly not original) The wheels are mavic monthlery pro tubular rims on Mailard wide flange hubs.

Any advice would be warmly received.

Pictures

Yes, Keith, we need to see pictures...then all the info you wrote will help fill in the blanks.
Without pics all I can guess is: the fork is very likely a replacement, and the frame could be British made.

By the way Kieth. Welcome to the Classic and Vintage Forum

Cheers,
Chris

photos now available

https://www.flickr.com/photos/47504868@N07/

Raleigh used to use lugs like that. Their top-end Team model was always bright red. But the serial number doesn't have a letter in it and I'm not sure about those seatstay caps.

well, thanks for the pics, now I wish I could offer an answer but I've got nothing. The seatstays are the single-taper style, and the top-tube cable guides and Campy (Campag) BB guides all point to a late 70s timeframe. Unfortunately, the lugs and stay-caps and even the shift-lever stop aren't distinctive of any maker in particular, but the plain square-cut BB shell and simple tube chainstay bridge make me think it was a mass-produced frame. I'd ask for a shot of the brake bridge and the rear drop-outs.

Thanks, all for that will post more picks soon

The head tube and seat tube top lugs look like the windowed lugs on a mid-80s Raleigh frame I have; the catalog literature says that they're Prugnat for mine. I think your frame is somewhat older than that, based on the braze-ons. The brazed-on cable guides on the bottom bracket are “transitional” between earlier bikes of the 70s that had guides clamped to the down tube, and later bikes from the mid-80s that routed cables under the BB. I'd be tempted to say Raleigh, but with Campy dropouts a Raleigh would have a serial number beginning W, and the BB lugs don't have the characteristic scallop out of the edges of the lugs (straight cut in your case) that Raleighs do. If it's threaded English, then chances are that it's of English, Dutch, or Japanese [Tange fork: even in England, a Japanese frame might turn up] manufacture. In any case, it's clearly a good quality frame. Stronglight's right that the brake bridge and ends of stays at dropouts might offer clues.

Raleigh did not use letters from the 60s to early 70s and the Carlton-made bikes have nightmare serial numbers. That said, the way the brake cable guides are on the top of the TT, make it highly unlikely to be a Raleigh of that era, unless they are letter additions on a guide-less Professional frame. The Campy BB cable guide might give some clues...

OK I,m gonna chuck my 2 cents in here, I think IMHO it ,s English and late 60,s, I have a reason for thinking this but I wont bore u with it ,not sure of make but am thinking it falls in along the lines of "Bates" etc etc, not saying it is one just similar,the guides on BB look familiar to me, I hope u find out for sure,wish it was mine good luck !

A Falcon or a Dawes?

If the TT brake cable guides were not there (or welded later) it could have been any kind of British mass manufacturer. (Add Bob Jackson, Carlton and Holdsworth to the equation). The lugs seem like Prugnat spearpoint with the additional cutout (and that cutout was atypical in british mass produced bikes with the Prugnat lugs) .... The more and more i look at it, the more small framemaker and not-mass produced it looks

I would like to say a big thanks for the interest, I have posted a few more pics on the same link as before showing the brake bridge, rather plain style but finely welded into the seat stays, the welds cannot be seen there so fine, also the chainstay brace and several photos of the rear drops which are similar in shape to campy 1010 but without the drillings for the set screws and no stampings around the machined face.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/47504868@N07/

Photos of brake bridge and drops now available

and even so I still got nothing
2 flippant suggestions: somebody once told me that when you have a British frame you can't ID, call it a Geoffrey Butler (cause these were apparently made in every style and by numerous builders).
and another one: call it a FKW frame (stands for F__k Knows Who)

Is that a dent or an intentional dimple in the drive side chain stay? There is the intentional linear dimple to provide chainring clearance, but I'm asking about the circular dimple ahead of that.

Did you spray over the top of the old finish? I think I see a place (an irregula low spot) where the original paint was scratched off but the primer did not refill. This is where you want to sand and spray and carefully re-sand until to get to a smooth surface.

The primer coat seems fairly thick, overall, yet you missed in a few places, such as covering the braze for the bottom bracket cable guide, the drive side rear dropout,....

It looks a lot like a Bob Jackson except for the seat stay ends and (possibly) the lug cut outs.

Did it come with a Bottom Bracket Installed? Is it standard ISO/English?

Its a Holdsworth probably from the 1980s. The frame number with the leading 0 is totally typical both in type, font size and placement.

the 80's on holdsworth didn't have the metal badge ie: labelled.
i have a 70's super mistral and an 80's nuovo record and both have 5 digit serial numbers in the same place, but as this has a zero at the start it could be older than an 80's model
best place to look is norman's website
https://www.nkilgariff.com/