noglider 

Lovely. Never heard of Presto. We don't see many Dutch bikes here in the US.

Elev12k

I haven't said anything on the groupset yet. I will not come as a surprise that the 'Model Campagnolo' comes with a full Campagnolo groupset. In this case it is Nuovo Record.

The groupset has an interesting feature: 'Portacattaneo' it is called, I've been told.

Nuovo Record shift-control >>



Looks like a regular shifter, but when looking closely you spot a 2nd small lever hidden under the shifter. This pic shows it better >>



When you lift the bit you can position the shifter one step down and the chain will shift onto below plate that sits bolted to the frame >>



The purpose is that when you take the rear wheel out, you first shift down onto the plate and the chain will still be tensioned with wheel out.

noglider 

I saw that plate come out in 1979.

Bianchigirll 

Hi, again nice bike. I wish I had paid more attention to this thread after my initial comment. I love all the unique touches on the frame. the square bridges, the cut seatlug. other than the 'trademark' of a particular builder does it do anything structrual? it appears (pardon me if this has been covered) as though it can grip the seatpillar tighter with less stress on the frame overall.

is the knurled spacer on the headset 'keyed'? it looks like you could grasp it with a pair of soft jawed pliers (like cannonplug pliers) to aid in adjusting.

cudak888 

That's the absolute first time I've ever seen a Campagnolo Portacatena system mounted to a frame. Interesting that it's a single-bolt model for mounting in a non-Portacatena dropout too (though far as I know, Portacatena-threaded DO's were only available on the 1010B short drop).

-Kurt

s70rguy

No, never seen another frame with that horizontal slot/slit. I'd love to ask both Legrand and Serier a lot of questions about their approach to frame building, but alas, I've heard they're not open to that kind of thing. both can be met 'accidentally' in a bikeshop in Amsterdam that I know, where they sometimes walk in for a coffe and a chat. But not about the old days! I've read a story about Legrand in the excellent semi-literary periodical 'De Muur', which was all about his love for jazz. In the 60s and 70s he must have met famous jazz players like Chet baker in Amsterdam. Now music matters more to him than stories about the old days.

I think (oh, forgive me, maybe I'm rambling now! Can't stop ...) Presto's were really the pinnacle of frame building in Holland: a 'to the point' approach, combined with understated artistry, as is shown in those details. No frills, just a race frame. I think (but have no way of proving that) those details were not discussed with the customer, just decided upon by the builder. Mmm, OK, I'll give this big frame some holes in the headlugs, makes it a bit more elegant ...

Last year I had a chance to talk with Frank Hoste (Belgium), who rode for TI-Raleigh in 1981 and 1982 (won Ghent-Wevelgem in 1982, so better watch this weekend.). So I asked him how Jan Legrand went about making the frames for the team members. Did everyone bring his own notes with the dimensions/geometry and gave it to Jan?
Frank told me that, as Jan was team mecanic, he would just look from the team car at the riders during the races, make some notes on what he liked or didn't like, build a frame in the next week that was just a bit different from the present one, build it up and gave it to the rider in question: hey, ride this! Not too much communication going on there ...

Marty: not only should I get a Peka (but where can I get one), I should get a Gino too .... (Cycles Gino, small bikeshop in Amsterdam, long gone ...).

Elev12k

It think you are correct on that. I would think that a) clamping force is spread more evenly and b) the area around the very rigid clamping bit won't suffer as much from deformation or hairy cracks (in metal or paint)

The spacers serves as spacer only.

s70rguy

About the blue Presto with P1038: just give the owner of Presto, Loek Valk a call. You can probably reach him on weekdays at the Oostzaan Presto shop.

I'm seeing the former supervisor of the Gazelle racing workshop in a couple of weeks, i'll ask him about a possible Presto-Gazelle connection.

cudak888 

I'll confirm that. If it was a Legrand feature, it would have shown up on one of the SDBU Team Pro's.

That said, I was looking at a very late, Legrand-built 753 Raleigh Team Pro frame this morning (an oddball too - all Cinelli lugs). I would have had my doubts, except that it had the traditional Legrand caps, and the owner of the bike - the original owner - knew Jan (IIRC, hence why he had it made). It didn't even come with factory paint; one of Legrand's last frames, I believe.

Aside from that, past the Legrand caps, it had a normal seatstay slot. Had Legrand invented it, we would have probably seen those binders on the Team Pros.

One other thing of note - the frame has Legrand's open-end seatstays, but the chainstays were sealed up.

EDIT: It's a bad photo, but behind this Eisentraut is the frame I mention:



EDIT: Slightly better photo:



-Kurt

oldmuthariley

lovely! but you shouldv'e called the thread: Hey Presto!
my 1979/80 gazelle champion mondial has those portacatena dropouts too...

Elev12k

I've spoken with Mr Loek Valk this morning. I got nice insights.

The blue 'Gazelle A-frame' Presto is not a Gazelle in disguise. It is more the other way round. It predates the A-frame and is of the hand of Mr. Slesker who build at Presto before Legrand/Serier start building. Slesker had been connected to Locomotief previously and Locomotief were taken over by ....Gazelle. There Slesker introduced the Champion Mondial A-frame (and AA-frame CM). That is why it looks like the A-frame.

So that model Presto is more or less the father of all A-frames. It is not exactly like an A-frame btw, for example the bb lug is slightly more decorative, there is a squarish tube instead of the the butterfly bridge and the lugs have seen more filing.



About how to recognize who built your frame Loek told me this: Frames by Serier did came with the slotted clamp and the seatstay tops with ridges. Serier was more into that kind of detailing in general. He were involved with fine mechanics initially. Without ridges denotes Jan Legrand, except for the TI Raleigh bikes. This is done to make them more look like the catalogue Raleighs. The frames Loek built also came with the slotted clamp, but Loek did not use the squarish brake bridge, but a part of Cinelli instead.

On the TI Raleigh connection: By far most if not all Team TI Raleigh bicycles were made by Jan in the Presto shop at the Haarlemmerstraat in Amsterdam, not in Ilkeston. Interesting thing is the Bulgier site shows and article with Jan in Ilkeston. Maybe there was a certain interest to present it that way. As if they were all made along the 'regular' SB's.

Back in the day you could also see many TI Team bikes parked in the A'dam shop. Among other teams that raced on by Presto built frames were Le Jeune (Jan Janssen) and Ketting.

Next to the TI Raleighs Jan did also still build Prestos. Frame production by the masterbuilders lasted untill ca 1982. The assumption of 500 made between '74 and '79 (see earlier in this topic) could be true, but in total the number could be significantly more. Numbering was sometimes a bit ''natte vinger werk'' (not always very accurate) and there are more systems through the years. According to Loek quite a lot Prestos made it into the US. They were exported to there by someone from Belgium (I unfortunately do not recall the name of)

After 1982 not much happened for a while. We briefly discussed an early 90s Presto example I encountered somewhere on the web recently. The particular Max tubing frame is still build in Holland and not outsourced to Italy or so. It is possibly built by Loek himself or another person I do not recall name of.

I think I pretty much covered all now.

lotek 

Melvin,

thanks for this. You know the comment about most of the 753 bikes being built in Amsterdam is going to
turn the CR list on it's collective head. There's someone on the list (can't recall name) who used to work in the
Ilkeston workshop

Elev12k

If there is anyone on here or CR who can tell us original TI Team bikes did leave Ilkeston and in substantial quantaties that of course would be interesting to learn. Next question to be answered than would be whether there was maybe a seperation in models, purposes, riders ...or maybe other people next to JL built TI bikes too?

s70rguy

Very good info Melvin! And this will sure ruffle the feathers of many Raleigh afficionados ... I think the someone Marty is referring to is Mike Mullett. He seldom participates in the CR list debates.
Also nice to hear about the different detailing attributed to Serier and Legrand. Which of course leaves the question who build the '77 Presto I once owned, which didn't have the slotted seatclamp, but did have the overlapping seatstay caps.

When I spoke with Ko Zieleman a couple of years ago, he told me that Gerrie Knetemann once walked into his shop in the Reggestraat, and asked Ko to build him a front fork with more rake for his Raleigh, to be used the next Sunday in Paris-Roubaix! So someone possibly owns a Raleigh built by Legrand and Zieleman ...

Collin2424

Ahhhh, I almost bought one of these but it had most of its original components replaced with Shimano 600 unfortunately. Does yours have the three X cutouts in the bottom bracket? Beautiful bike/restore. You did a fine job.

-Collin-

Elev12k

Hi Collin

Despite the 600 parts - you should have bought it. Given state and price are right of course. One of my own Prestos, also a 'Model Campagnolo', came with a little Huret, Sugino, a few bits Shimano ...and yes, a couple Campag parts too. I do not know why this was the case. Maybe some parts had been replaced, but it could also be the 1st owner couldn't dig deeper in his pocket after he had his frame built. Of course the bike will be fully resurrected with Campag.

The in this topic covered green Presto does not have the 'three X' cutouts under the bb shell. Maybe that was only for frames where cables ran on top bb.

jan nikolajsen 

Threads like these ad much needed substance to this forum.

5cagm

A few months ago there was a Presto for Sale that claimed to be made of SLX and was outfitted with shimano 600 components. The guy was asking $300 but it was a bit of a drive out of town. It also had the XXX seastay caps. I'm thinking I probably should have picked it up haha.

Elev12k

Picked up this 'Blacky' a couple hours ago



Presto, a Jan Legrand built this time. Spec: mainly a mix of Nuovo Gran Sport and Nuovo Record complemented with Sugino Super Mighty cranks and Universal brakes. The 105 aero levers are a added at some later point. Cinelli 1A/Giro d'Italia cockpit and Unicator seat. I am of the opinion that most parts should make their return with the rebuild.

Serial 2038, what would indicate it must be early 70s.

Elev12k

The previous (and 1st) owner sent me the original bill of 'the Blacky' through post. Super cool.



It mentions 13 december 1975 as the date that the original owner took delivery of his "Presto Tour Special". Also specced: Black with silver headtube, chrome fork, frame# 2038. Not specced are the components. They are summed up on an attached piece of paper. The bike was purchased for 1498,50 guilders.

jan nikolajsen 

Super nice. Presto, as you told me once, surely is one of the most desirable vintage brands out of your country.

I seem to remember that one Gulden was 3.8 DKR, which made this Presto sell for $800-1000. Could be wrong, though. My late seventies travels to Holland is now only a distant memory.

lubloi

Reviving an old thread with some pictures of my Presto. I bought the frame from a webshop in Hungary, don't know how the frame got there. Being Dutch myself, I felt I had to buy this frame when I saw it. I built it up with cheap mostly used components that I know are not worthy of the frame, but at this point I just want to be able to ride it, nothing more. It's a joy to ride, by the way.
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lubloi

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lubloi

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