Can someone help me with the year of my Guerciotti? Don't pay attention to the components many were added by me, maybe use the decals and the bottom bracket does not have a cutout star. I have it on my photobucket as a 1983 but not sure.

You may never know exatly but alot of people use pre-post Tens Speed Drive imports (TSD) as a way to date them. TSD was an importer of Guerciotti for awhile. The frames were built in Italy by Guerciotti and shipped bare to TSD in The States where they were painted and decaled.

Your guesstimate on date is probalby close, it has Campy portacatina dropouts and braze-on front derailleur hanger.

I think yours is an '83. A couple of years ago I bought one from a seller who said his was an '82. Compare the shape of the cutouts and less rounded fork crown with yours:

I took the parts off that bike and put them on a larger frame, which the seller said was from '83. I think it's like yours. It has a star cutout on the head lug.

Unfortunately, it was missing its fork when I bought it. The seller, who had tried unsuccessfully to find one, said I would need to find a sloping crown. I never found exactly what I was looking for, but what you have on yours is what I would expect to find on an '83.

My '83 (bought new in '83) did not have a cutout in the BB shell. So, I think you're correct.

One thing i have noticed is that the early 80s decals are mostly water transfers( I think that what you call those things). I am not sure when these guys changed to a full sticker, the white wrapped around downtube with the name of the builder to save money or labor I think? This may be happenning around 82-85?

IIRC, the only thing that has been proven absolutely certain is that the "Paolo Guerciotti" seat stay caps were introduced in 1984. So far, I've seen neither rhyme nor reason in lugwork, cutouts, seat stay bridges, spoon seatstay caps, or decals. That's not even considering TSD's involvement.

I would take every postulation with a grain of salt until enough bikes with reasonably confirmed years of purchase (and even then, a margin of 1 or 2 years for error) could be rounded up and compared with each other. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the claims of either seller there, Gridplan, unless they had original sales receipts to back their claims.

-Kurt

The earlier graphics are transfers, the revised graphics - at least, on TSD examples - are peel-and-stick. The only thing I am sure about is that I've never seen a post-'83 frame (Paolo Guerciotti's signature on seat stay caps) with the earlier decal set. Spoon-stay cap examples are as easy to find with the earlier set as the later, though the TSD 1978 showbike does positively indicate that the spoon caps and the earlier decal set were in use that year.

However, I've had an example with flat stay caps (marked "GUERCIOTTI") which was obviously produced sometime after 1978 due to Portacatena-ready 1010B dropouts. One might assume this variant came in between the spoon-cap variant and the Paolo G. caps, but they're unusual enough that I've only seen one other example; furthermore, quite a few spoon-stay cap examples have been claimed to be examples dating from as late as 1982 and 1983. Many of these also have the later decal set.

Doesn't make sense, does it? What is more, the flat-cap versions are virtually dead-on identical to a Benotto 3000, with exception to the cap pantographing and occasional variants in the headlugs (Benotto seemed to fluctuate in what headlugs they used on the 3000). I know Guerciotti supposedly never built a bike themselves, but neither the spoon-stay cap Gooch's nor the post-'83s have the slightest resemblance to any Benotto.

White wrapped around the downtube was used specifically on the AlAn-built aluminum frames, never on steel:



-Kurt

Your bike appears to be similar to mine,82-83? Mine has the spoon stays (1983 and earlier?), a Cinelli BB housing (1982-1984 transition? Only TSD frames?) and post 84 decals (repaint). I sent pics to Guerciotti several times and received no reply. They probably have no way of nailing it down either. Just another mystery.

A few shots of mine for reference. Never did nail down a year, I always referred to it as a 'mid-80's'.

If I ever locate Guerciotti catalogs from '82 and '83, I think I'll see the differences I described. Unfortunately, Mark Bulgier's scans don't include those catalogs.

That would still limit your information to TSD imported frames, not the bikes that came through other channels.

That reminds me - TSD put braze-on FD mounts on the SLX frames - did Gooch do this for the completed bikes that did not go through TSD? Who knows?

-Kurt

I would contend that for a given model year something central to the frame, like the cutout on a head tube lug, would not vary by importer. I'm guessing too the fork crown for that year would also be consistent. But if I could find Guerciotti catalogs from '82 & '83, TSD or not, it would help to prove or disprove that. From what I read on the CR list, the frames came to TSD with primer already on them; that TSD's responsibilities centered around checking the frames' alignment and painting them.

I think what Kurts trying to say is that TSD may have requested a certain specification outside of Guerciottis normal production. In other words, TSD may not have imported 'off the rack' frames. We dont know with all certainty where some of thses bikes came from. People may have brought them back from Europe after being in the miltary, working there or vacationing. I doubt we'll ever really know the specifics of the beginnigs of the TSD era.

That is already certain - TSD bikes had their logo engraved into the (EDIT: BRAKE BRIDGE).

-Kurt

On my 1984 frame, the TSD pantograph is on the rear brake bridge (along with G-in-star), not seat stays.

I must be losing my mind. I meant to say brake bridge:



-Kurt

P.S.: Since we seem to be in a Guerciotti ID'ing mood here, I figured I'd throw these pictures into the mix:

The first set of photos to follow are of a 63cm (ctc), post-1983 Gooch. Definitely a TSD machine according to the brake bridge. It has a FD mount, which indicated an SLX frame; TSD would braze on the FD mounts for these. A peer down the seat tube confirmed it as SLX. Paint originality is questionable, particularly as it has no decals. Campag 1010B drops, IIRC. Brazed-on mounts for two bottle cages, headtube pump peg. Single-loop top tube cable braze-ons. I believe the brake bridge was made by Cinelli - quite a few folks used them. I honestly don't remember if this had cutouts, lugs were medium/long point. Guerciotti engraved BB.

Second set is of a spoon-stay Gooch with the revised decal kit. Again, arguable paint, same for the decals. 62cm (ctc), with C.B.T. Italia (!) dropouts. No chrome anywhere, possibly a very basic frame. Gipiemme 1841 AB brake bridge. Cast ring top tube cable brazeons. Short-point lugs with triangular cutouts. Single bottle cage braze-ons.

Third set is of another spoon-stay Gooch, revised decal kit. I think this one might be original paint. FD mount/SLX - brings up the question whether Guerciotti's non-TSD SLX bikes had FD braze-on mounts. NO TSD engraving on the brake bridge, and a braze-on for a under-the-top-tube racing number. Campagnolo 1010B drops. Double bottle cage braze-ons. Star cutout on lower head lug ONLY - all other lugs blank.

Fourth - and I only have few photos of this - is the Benottoesque machine with the Portacatena 1010B's - lugs seem to be a form of the Prugnat 62, with heart-style cutouts, over-the-BB cable routing (with an under-the-BB braze-on on the seat stay! What a disaster!), flat caps, etc.

-Kurt

Bike #1:

-Kurt

Bike #2

-Kurt

Bike #3, best photos I have:









Bike #4:









Note foreground seatstay caps, not background:


-Kurt

How prominent is the rifling on an SLX seat tube? I don't see (or feel) any on my TSD and it has the braze-on FD mount. I just assumed it was SL.

You won't feel it, because the tube had no rifling where the seatpost sits. Take the post out and shine a bright penlight down the tube. There should be some very faint raised, spiraled edges inside, a-la the James Bond gunbarrel opening sequence.

-Kurt

My '83 Guerciotti was SL and had a braze-on FD mount. The frameset came from the manufacturer?/distributor? with a super record headset and front derailleur installed.