Here is a question for you: Will 77XX derailleurs work with ST-6400 STI levers? (Assume a 8sp cassette). Everywhere I read, I assume that this is the case, but have never actually seen that combination at work

I happen to be quite fond of Dura Ace.

Raced on it many years ago. Worked great. Love the way 7400 hoods/shifters feel in my hands. They just fit me perfectly.

We chose to use it then because the price was excellent w/ our discounts.

We also chose to use it then cause it rocked! Fantastic for racing.

I just got used to it over all of these years.

Last summer I rode an FP3 w/ DA 10 speed in Tuscany and I loved it.

Nothing wrong with Ultegra or 105 though.

Ultegra is the model of choice I see on so many local crit racers' bikes. That or SRAM Force/Rival.

I've seen a few up close comparisons of 7800 vs 6600 vs 6600 SL. It comes down to fit and finish and very minor weight savings for a lot of extra money. For example the DA derailleur has bearings for both pulleys whereas the 6600 only has bearings on one. If money is no object go DA but the reviews I've seen (and most riders) can't tell the difference when riding on the road, so it's really for show unless you're a top level professional and a few grams really could make the difference between winning and coming second.

On the down side some DA components wear much faster, cassettes in particular seem to have a much shorter life than their Ultegra counterparts. For my money I generally stick with Ultegra although I do have a nice set of SL-7900 DA shift levers for my vintage bike because they're shiny and look pretty (and have the words Dura Ace on them :-)). I couldn't resist when PBK had them on sale for $33 recently which was half what I paid for the 8 speed SL-R400 levers I was using.

On a side note,

the 74xx rd will work for some reason with 7700 brifters. My 8spd sti crapped out, and they are rarer and apparently more temperamental than 7700. So I bought a pair of 7700 shifters and they've been working great.

I think they look nicer as well.

Always make sure you put only the fanciest and most expensive components on your commuter bike. That way the guy who steals it can get a better price on craigslist.

E, Shimano changed the throw of the 77XX series shifters in 1997 to be the same as the older NON-Dura Ace throw i.e 105, rsx, 600 Ultegra so what we'd need to assume is that the 77XX derailleur throw is the same as the older NON-Dura Ace STI levers i.e. 105, RSX 600 Ultegra . I'm not an expert on this but the answer seems to be yes.

jinbossa, you got lucky and your situation is where alot of confusion comes from. If someone were to ask, "will a 77XX lever work with a 74XX deraileur?" the answer is a simple and firn NO!!. On occasion an odd combination will work, I'm sure someone has used Campy Synchros with a Shimano derailleur, Regina chain and Suntour Winner freehwheel and had it work.

Go w/ Ultegra. Cheaper & it performs the same. So what if it's a few grams heavier. If you're THAT concerned about weight, you should have the latest CF frameset & lightest wheels too. Oh yeah, and you're not packing any extra weight on your body, either.

My commuter sits next to me all day, locked to a cabinet in a room that I have the key to. I go to work and then home, no groceries or train stations for me.

Nope.

I have 3 Dura Ace and 2 600/Ultegra bikes in the garage.

it depends on the era. Back in the '70s, I wasn't that impressed with Dura Ace mostly because Shimano was famous for not being able to produce spare parts when needed. I always thought that Campagnolo Record was only a little bit more expensive but a better value. The next step down from Dura Ace/Record was a fairly big step in fit and finish and durability. Suntour rear derailleurs worked better, but they were not top of the line and really were out of place on a high-end bicycle. It's apparent nowadays that the difference in function with the lower levels of components is fairly small.

I'm confused then, because both Sheldon Brown and this other guy said differently:

Sheldon Brown's: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html

British CTC: http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault...D=3946#Shimano

I'm not saying your wrong, just really confused

I know that I may never find this but I have to ask on this thread... I am looking for one cone locknut for the 7400 brake calipers. Do you have one laying around somewhere in your house?

Part #11 on this photo:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/strongl...25770/sizes/l/

I just picked up a partial 7400 grupo. Missing the brake levers, bottom bracket, headset, seat post and... one locknut

Thanks!

The ctc website has all the great info, adding together both the cog spacing and the cable pull to come up with the final definitive answers. It's just math. And Shimano themselves agree. If you buy some of the original 9s DA bar-end shifters, it is stickered that it is designed to work with the 740x RD, but as an 8 speed, not a 9 speed. And I too am using a 9s [DA] STI with an 8s cassette/7402 RD combo.

I have noticed on the ctc chart that the 10s STI will work as a 9s with the 740x RDs. Or even better, use a 10s STI, a 740x RD, and 8 of 9 cogs on a 7s UG hub. That's what may go on my repainted and 740x DA'd '78 Raleigh Pro.

Performance? What is performance?

Here are my views.

Derailleurs and everything else are pretty much two separate categories. (Again, this is my view, and you are free to have your own.) I feel we base our impressions on derailleur (shifting) performance and project that to the other components. I feel this is misguided. It's lovely to have a quick, accurate shift, but it doesn't have all that much to do with your overall cycling experience, unless you are in a competitive race where milliseconds count. Even those of us who compete spend most of our time on bikes in things other than races.

You roll on your hubs all the time the bike is moving. You turn your cranks and pedals most of the time. You brake and shift even less. So I think hub performance matters more than derailleur performance.

And what's the performance difference between one hub and another? Friction is such a minor concern that even the worst hubs don't slow you down significantly. So what are other parameters? To me, durability is paramount. And unless you are very hard on your stuff AND you don't want to replace things, it scarcely matters which hubs, pedals, headset, bottom bracket you use. Most of us who ARE hard on our stuff also love our stuff for the beauty and pride of ownership. With that, it follows that we enjoy replacing and buying. So durability isn't even that important.

Again, I am leaving out competitive racing, which places unusually high demands on bikes.

Look at the crap that delivery bikes have. And it works.

OK, brakes matter. But you can get excellent braking from some moderately priced brakes.

So it boils down to sentimentality and aesthetics.

If you want top of the line stuff -- from any brand --, I think the primary motivators are sentimentality and aesthetics.

This is why it's hard for me to spend the money on top of the line stuff. I built myself a nearly-all-Campy Record bike in 1984. I haven't done the same since then. I just wanted the best.

I can understand buying top of the line hubs if you think you'll rebuild them into a few wheels over the course of your life.

I'm a frugal person. My joy comes from maximizing the balance between money and performance. That's the engineer in me. Anyone can build the best machine in the world given an unlimited budget. You don't even have to be smart. It takes intelligence to make something 98% as good for 30% of the price. So I look for exceptional values. I never find it in the bottom of the line, and I rarely find it in the top of the line.

I like your style...
I agree with everything you said ( but without my own experience to back it up). The sentimentality/aesthetics is certainly a factor. Now that I think of it, I think the only reason I was looking at DA after getting this RD was that I've never had the opportunity to have anything top of the line. I'm alsways peicing it all together etc.

Maybe I NEED to put one together to fulfill the dream.

Then I can hapily roll on Sora for the rest of my days.

Where do they say that 77XX shifters will work with a 74XX derailleur? If I'm reading the charts right they say the 9-speed levers are NOT compatible with pre '97 Dura-Ace (7400).


From SB: And I think there's someting worng with the CTC table. How can a Shimano 8-speed lever not be compatible with and old Dura Ace derailleur but a 9 speed lever is? There's something wrong with the chart. I think its that all the Shimano levers listed are non-DA levers.

Its easy.

Pre '97: Everything interchanges with everything except Dura Ace. Dura Ace must be paired with Dura Ace.

Shimano Dura Ace trivia:

Which 2 parts have titanium oxide coatings?

Ultegra is a lot cheaper because bike-dorks feel it necessary to dump it and upgrade to Dura Ace; perfect for me and anyone else who doesn't give a damn about appearances.

Chain rings and cassette cogs?

...and I heard somewhere that the headset races were also TiO2 coated.

Halfway down the link, under the Shimano mechs. Under the left column you should find the Shimano 9.

Look two columns to the right and highlighted in green in apparent compatability with "old dura ace" which is an 8 speed hub (which is 74xx) i think.

maybe i'm reading this hideously wrong and just got extremely extremely luck with mine.

Also, I think their table shows shimano 8spd not being compatible because all the shifters they are comparing are non dura ace. I think older dura ace isn't compatible with anything but itself. However, the advent of 9spd shimano standardized the entire line.

Thats 1 part.

Your reading the Sheldon chart wrong.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html

Your reading the Sheldon chart wrong. Notice that 'any 9-speed shifter' is listed twice. One listing says it is...if you read straight across and I think that the error while the other listing says it isnt. Too many times individual or buisness with a fniancial gain are too quick to put info on the 'net. I have nothing to gain and only 1 thing (my rep on BF) to lose. IIRC the last time I put smack down on SB, PW ad VO for a glaring error on their pages they never appeared here to contradict me.

Going forward with everything and backwards with everything......except Dura Ace. Old Dura Ace is its own animal.

It's funny that we're having this discussion. When dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was in the bike business, Campagnolo was the highest regarded stuff, and rightly so in nearly every case. Even our boss trained us with a response, in case anyone asked us if something, e.g. DuraAce was as good as Campy. He said we should ask them if they're out of their farking mind.

But old man Campagnolo died, and the son knew he had to get with the times, so he diversified the line, and it wasn't made in the old handmade tradition, and it wasn't backward compatible, and so on.