Dura Ace worth it?
 

So what's the concensus on Dura Ace over say Ultegra?
Yes, I know how stupid that question may sound. It's just that I've never had Dura Ace components, and the best (and great so far) I've had is Ultegra level. I'm building my commuter bike and had a DA RD thrown in whith a wheelset I purchased used. Now I'm tantilized by the possibility of upgrading. But, I'm wondering if it's really a TRUE value?

Other than the same old line marketing tactics, what does DA offer that Ultegra doesn't?
Longevity?
Resistance to wear?
Durability?
Weight? (as far as I read this is the biggie? Only for weight weenies?)
Better action?
Availabilty?
Craftsmanship?

I'm thinking more modern 8-9 speed but opinions on older work as well.

I don't know what the consensus is, but it's worth it if you're a competitive racer.

Otherwise, there's no justification for spending all that extra money for a couple raisins worth of weight savings that will save you 9 seconds on your next hour and half group ride.

And if anyone mentions the joy of smoother shifts, move slowly away from them. Kind of like buying a 90k Porsche only for the "sweet exhaust note".

I've always been curious about the Durability of Dura-Ace...so often race performance comes before Durability on the very high end of things.

Often Ultegra is just DA a few years removed. Trickle down effect.

Ultegra is the same as dura ace in all ways except weight. Unless you are a racer it is just jewelry for your bike and hipster points. Some classics guys like to use the DA stuff on thier really nice bikes, its an attention to detail thing. Do what makes you happy, but you will not notice any performance difference.

For a commuting bike, it's not really worth it, IMO. One potential upgrade you might think about doing on a commuter is going from Ultegra to Deore XT (because of the bombproofness) but that's about it... 640x Tricolor is a very sweet spot for vintage bikes, in durability, performance and compatibility both upwards and backwards.

That said (and let's compare 600 Ultegra Tricolor with 74xx - because there were lots of generations), DA offers some advantages (like the ability to go down to an 11-tooth cog) and the early hyperglide. Most of these advantages were real for the period, but right now are pretty much either obsolete or commonplace. One major disadvantage of that era DA (74xx) is that it really is pretty much incompatible with everything else Shimano, so you cannot mix and match easily.

Well you asked about relatively new DA. When it comes to 8 speed, I've not owned DA but have read about how you have to run the cable differently to get DA to work correctly if you mix with non-DA components. So I stayed away and went with Ultegra/600 TriColor and 105/RSX/SX100. IMHO Ultegra 8 speed is worth it. Those shifters are certainly smoother than any of the 105/RSX/SX100 shifters I have.
With regard to 9 speed, I'm VERY happy with the 105 shifters and derailers I have but am well aware of how the Ultegra/DA right shifters can wear out with age and are not repairable.
IMHO, DA is nice eye candy but I'd rather go for 105 and buy other components like better wheels. I have tried some wheel/hub upgrades (Mavic Ksyrium, Alex A-320s, Shimano XT hubs and Ritchey Vantage MTB wheels) and can detect the improvement in speed.

^ Well put, E and rocco... ^

For pre-STI, as far as shift levers, not much difference between 105/600/DA, except for DA's compatibility issues.
For pre-STI, as far as brake levers, ditto, no compatibility issues.
For pre-STI, as far as cranksets, ditto, minor appearance/weight differences, but many feel the 600 tricolor was nicer.
For pre-STI FD's, ditto, but the DA FD's seem to be abundant and priced right. The 8-sp 105 stuff seems to be rarer.
For pre-STI RD's, ditto, minor appearance/weight differences, but many feel the 600 tricolor was nicer.
For pre-STI calipers, ditto, minor appearance/weight differences, but many, including myself, find the 105 single pivot calipers to be fine and light.
The best thing now about the pre-STI stuff is you can get a matched set pretty reasonably.

As far as hubs, there was a nice little time frame when the "banded" 105 and 600 hubs were nearly as nice as the 7400 hubs, but the 7400 hubs are really nice. Properly cleaned and packed, they'll run with anything out there.

DA then pulled a bonehead move with the 10-sp only hub, and also the 7700 triple. Guaranteed obsolescence.

When you get to STI's, the 6400 and 7400 were identical except for appearance, and share the same "nearly no longer exists" hoods. However, the 7400 STI had finicky shifting with non-DA RD's and cassettes (still worked). They can also be repaired, if you can salvage the hoods.

The 8-sp era probably had the greatest appearance difference between 105 (pewter), 600 (dark grey) and DA (polished). Sante (white) is in there, too.

I can only speak of experience with 9-sp, STI shifters mainly. My 105's were nice, light, and worked well. My Ultegra's were noticeably smoother, and the DA's weren't that much different than Ultegra's. They were on different bikes, though, so no direct comparison would be credible.

I like the appearance of 9-sp Ultegra over the 105 and the DA, and don't see any reason to "upgrade" to 9-sp DA stuff. The DA crankset is noticeably lighter when you hold it, but the Ultegra BB is much more durable than the DA BB in the 9-sp stuff.

The 9-sp STI shifters, not being repairable, simply wear out, and that's a lot of money for disposables. Doesn't matter whether it's 105/Ultegra/DA.

A 9-sp DA group just went on eBay for $510. IMHO, it was not worth it. I simply wouldn't spend more for DA than Ultegra at this point.

I wouldn't know about 10-sp, but thank Shimano for the 10-sp DT shifters, both the 7800 and the 7900. I like 'em and use 'em.

If I was to fork over the cash for new 10-sp stuff, it would be SRAM, Campy, 105, Sampson, Sunrace, Microshift, Ultegra, DA, in that order.

If I was flush with cash, sure, I'd go electric DA, but wouldn't put it on a bike suitable for this forum.

+1

I honestly can't tell the difference between 105, Ultegra and Dura Ace the vast majority of times, but...as stated above...I still often want dura-ace (or campy record) because it's what belongs on the bike. I know it's silly. I know it's stupid. I still often do it.

This is an interesting question, as I am at a cross-roads with the '89 Paramount I have been riding. It has 105 8speed STI everywhere save the FD, which is tri-color 6400. Everything works, though I find I have to really trim the FD to get it lined up, and am thinking that 105 left STI would prefer a matching 1055 FD. I have most of a 7400 Dura-Ace set-up but no STI's, and I was thinking of using that on the Paramount. I also have a full 6400 set-up with STI's that I haven't fully committed to anything yet. I don't know which way to go with that bike.....seems like it deserves DA, but it also seems like the tri-color would be fine and might work better. I'd love some thoughts on what you would do....

Personally, I think there's a bigger difference between DA and Ultegra than there is between Ultegra and 105. The DA STI levers have a very different (better, more positive) feel to me than the Ultegra ones do (having just upgraded 9s Ultegra to 9s Dura Ace).

You 7400 RD will not work with non-7400 shifters. If I were you, I'd use the 6400 set up or get 7400 STIs to use with the 7400 set up

I've found that the front trim on all Shimano STI levers is at best primitive compared to SRAM and Campy. The front trim on my 9sp dura ace was not very good...neither was 10sp 105 or any of the older 8sp stuff. Shimano might have made their mark with indexed shifting, but Campy makes a far superior product when it comes to brifters. I still can't believe how smoothly my campy 8 sp stuff works! It really blows Shimano totally out of the water.

Yeah, I do know that. My issue is more about wondering if its worth the time to get a 7402 RD (I have a 7401, but want to run 8 speed) and 7400 STI, or just go with the 6400 stuff. Does the fact of it being a Waterford nudge me toward going with DA, or is that just my own mental hang-up? I ride the heck out of that bike, so the practical part me says run what works (therefore 6400) but the nostalgic part of me says run the drivetrain the bike deserves, hence 7400.....

I know, I'm a little neurotic....:innocent:

The RD I got was a 7800 for free because it is missing a jockey wheel. So the concensus is that this may not even work with my Ultegra 9s Brifters? Hmm. It's purdy but I sure don't have DA Brifter money.

Interesting thoughts on this topic. I agree that in my experience with Ultegra I've been happy as can be upgrading on the cheap. The compatibility and even longevity (brifters and BB?) of the DA sounds crappy to me.

Sounds like it may only be worth it if you find astonishingly low prices.

And,
the 10s option sounds very interesting for vintage steeds. Cassettes are still pricey though.

OK. we are talking a different generation there :) 7700 and 7800 Dura Ace bits will play nice with any other Shimano. So your 7800 RD will work with the 9sp Ultegra STIs as well as any 6-10 speed index Shimano (other than 74xx Dura Ace) with the limiting factor being the least capability (Shifters or cassette)

Do what it feels right :) (esp. if you have 8 speeds on your wheel already) but you gotta take into consideration that the cost of the RD-7402 and STIs (esp the STIs) are $200ish

Brifters? 8, 9, 10 speed? What are those? I thought we were in C & V... :-)

Yes its worth it. Dura Ace is the only Shimano group thats worth anything.

105 parts: Dime a dozen
600 parts: Dime a dozen

Dura Ace: Can get pricey for parts in good condition.

I'll disagree with the Dura Ace to Ultgera 'trickle down' analogy. While certains technologies may have trickled down I.E.: SIS, STI, HG, cassetttes etc there is NO Ultegra derailleur or brake caliper or hub that has ever eclipsed any Dura Ace part it terms of performance or technology. Campy does that, not Shimano. Ultegra may be the 'best bang for the buck' but its NOT Dura Ace. Never has been, never will be.

If you've spend any time in RC you'd know that anything thats not Carbon, not Titanium, doesnt make you look ******** if you get 2 feet from you bike or is more than 5 years is old is C&V.

7400, 7401 and 7402 RD's will work with 7400 STI levers. I'm not sure if the 7400 has enough travel for 8-speeds but it will properly index. Keep in mind that all you need to do is match the first two numbers to play it safe:

74XX derailleurs only work with 74XX levers
77XX and 78XX derailleurs will NOT work with 74XX levers and vice versa
77XX and 78XX levers will NOT work with 74XX deraillers and vice versa

I'll take a dozen 105, a dozen 600, and PayPal you, plus fees.....

I sold all that stuff last week. My Paypal balance is $3.50.

Most of the price difference in this stuff goes into profit for the retailer. In other words, manufacturing costs are almost identical. At least that was the case way back when I was in the business.

To me, that means it's not worth it unless you really need the very best. But talk about a diminishing return!

I have to agree with Tom...does it really make that much difference in my ride if the dura ace head set is fractionally smoother or lighter? Is the difference that it makes accurately reflected in the cost differential? Yet I still buy it.