Cinelli Repaint
 

I have a cinelli frame from 83 that I would like have repainted since the paint isn`t that good anymore. Chrome still is perfect and there is no rust or other issues.
My question is if anyone has experience with it or knows if Cinelli offers to repaint old frames from them.
What would a nice repaint cost?
Thank you,
Matt

Hi there, I'd have to see pics to back up my opinion but I think you are going to seriously degrade the value of your bike by repainting it. Should you ever choose to sell it, it will fetch much more with the original paint ESPECIALLY if there is no rust or other issues. I would never re-paint my Cinelli. in any case maybe your definition of not that good is different than mine, so pics would help. Oh yeah, to answer your question a basic one colour repaint at a good painter will cost about $300 in my neck of the woods, plus replacement decals and application, say $100, so $400 total.

I think it depends on the Cinelli. With no decals, and poor paint, it's worth less to me. If I can get period-correct decals, and get it painted the same color and apply decals, doesn't bother me a bit, but some collectors like patina and don't want alterations of any kind.

If I'm going to ride it, I'm not worried about value, so a repaint would be on my list, in red, and new decals.

I was going to sell it. I bought it only because of the Campa 50th Anniversery Gruppo that was build on it.
Now I thought it might better sell if it is repainted and has original decals.
If I get a good price for it without decals, that would be ok for me too. I might just try it.


The frame is wine red and has no decals. It was a custom order told me the original owner.
Overall the paint is still good, but on the top tube there are a lot of paintchips from storage.
I imagined that Cinelli might do repaint so it is still somewhat original. If I do a repaint, I really want a very good
quality.

Correction: frame is from 84, what Model: I have no idea. I will post pictures as soon as my Photobooket is running again

The general rule of thumb is that you won't get your money out of a repaint. It's true the vast majority of the time. Let the next owner repaint it - that way they can choose the color.

May I ask the size of this frameset?

Thank you.

Not at all gomango. It`s a 58cm

I concur. I have been on both sides of this issue, in the sense that I am preserving what's left of the original paint on Capo #2, but I paid CyclArt a bit more than the bike is probably worth to repaint Capo #1, which now looks stunning and certainly gets noticed. (Since Capo #1 had already been repainted once, I was spared the whole "original finish" dilemma.) I am pleased with both decisions.

1984 was kind of a bubble year, as the factory was sold to the Columbus family around that time. It may be one to leave alone.

Cinelli changed hands in 1978, so 6 years before this frame was built. Cinelli will repaint your frame if you contact them (they have done it for a friend of mine in Italy), but they won't do it in house, so you might as well get it repainted yourself. I do not know in Luxembourg, but you can definitely find competent painters at very good prices in Italy (less than 150 euros). Decals should also be available.

I have contacted Cinelli now by email. Hope I get an answer soon.
If it isn`t too expensive I will probably let them repaint it. This way they can put the correct decals at the same time.
I just hope the frame doesn`t look too good afterwards cause if so I know I will have problems to let it go ;)

From what I have found on the Internet you are right that Cinelli sold it to the Columbus family in 84.
Citoyen du monde, where did you get the information that Cinelli changed hadns in 78?

When I was researching my Equipe I remember running across the information that Cinelli sold out to the Colombo family/Columbus Tubing in late seventies - 1978, as I recall.

Check Sheldon Brown's comments near middle of page.....

http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspo...9/cinelli.html

Google is your friend.

j

FYI, regarding vintage bicycle research, "on the internet" is not very specific as a source for information. There's tons of incorrect and misleading information "on the internet." So it's only fair, if you're going to challenge someone else's information, to be specific about where you obtained your own.

Sounded more like a question.

Agree though, on the internet will not beat the "personal expertise" source.

I'm happy to replace "challenge" with "question" and let my point stand. If you're going to question information on the basis of your own research, be specific about your own sources.

The more pertinent questions would be:

'Did the person/persons building Super Corsa's continue to build them after the ownership change? Was the transition to Columbo ownership gradual? How long did it take? Is there more than anecdotal evidence to suggest otherwise?'

Cinelli's website states 1978: http://www.cinelli.it/EN/chi_siamo.html
Andrea Cinelli, the son of Cino has confirmed the 1978 date to me.
There are countless articles from the late 70's that confirm the 1978 date.
The corporate registry of Milan confirms the 1978 date.
The change of logo to the winged "C" took place in 1978, much to the chagrin of Cino who did not like it.

The same builders did continue building frames, however the production numbers did increase quite considerably

Here are a few pictures of the frame. As you see the overall condition is good. But the scratches on the Toptube really hurt.
I am currently negotiating with the seller on ebay since he took all the pictures from as low as possible to hide the scratches on
the toptube. I got over 20 pictures, and no one showed the scratches on the TT. :( My first ripoff on bikes....

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...4/P1030136.jpg

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...4/P1030137.jpg

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...4/P1030135.jpg

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...4/P1030138.jpg
http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...4/P1030134.jpg

There is no way that this frame left Cinelli with that paint. It has been repainted.

I don't know if you are right to say that you got ripped off. In fact I think that it is petty and incorrect to "negotiate" with a seller after the fact: either you accept what you got and shut up or return the item and take your lumps on the return shipping fees.

A quick look at the frame would have shown it to me to be a repaint, no matter the quality of the photos. If the photos were so horribly bad as to prevent you from recognizing anything, then shame on you for not doing your due diligence. Plus in the case of a 50th anniversary bike, the value is invariably in the components. The paint damage has no impact on the ultimate value of the bike as a collector's object, nor on the use of the bike as a tool to ride. When you play with big boys, you need to be a big boy yourself. You more than likely won the bike because others had done thorough due diligence or shied away because of the poor pictures.

BTW, the seatlug bolt is not correct.

This not the end of the world.

Here is to hoping there was not "over" payment.

You have your components. Properly market and sell at your discretion.

Either to use, or to sell, you have your value in those.

Then on to the frame.

You will still have options:

1) Sell as is without any further effort other than an ad and accompanying fees. Not such a bad option keeping in mind the additional costs that may be involved.

2) Have fun with the frame. Have it lovingly refinished and do it some credit. There are at least two painters in this area that would do a "nice" job. Surely you must have access to many more than that at competitive rates.

Under very few circumstances will I talk to a seller about the price after a deal has been negotiated and accepted by both parties.

Agreed that it is poor form.

As for the original owner, he/she may have been honest when they stated it was a custom "paint" order. It just wasn't from the manufacturer, it was from the painter/refinisher.

That would be my interpretation.

I asked for more pictures and the Seller send me over 20 pictures of the bike. Not one of these showed the scratches on the top tube shown in picture n°3.
If then I get the bike and discover these scratches, of course I negotiate. Or I get money back, or I send the frame back. It is obvious that the seller was hiding
somthing if he sends so many pictures but none of it shows the worst and most obvious part of the bike! Don`t you think Citoyen du Monde.

As for the Paint, I am no expert but I asked him if it is the original Paint from Cinelli. He said yes. Sorry if I am not an expert like you are and see this on the pictures.
I would also be ok with this fact, but the part with the scratches not mentioned or documented really makes me flip out.

I think that you are right to be angry with the seller. The seller has the item and can inspect it and inform the buyer as to condition. In general, a buyer does not have the ability to inspect an item and determine its condition. The buyer has to rely on the seller to accurately describe the condition of the item. Note that in general, a seller has a legal obligation to disclose defects that the seller is aware of. If the seller didn't disclose the paint defects on the top tube, he's a dishonest SOB. If the seller deliberately took pictures so as not to disclose the scratches in the paint on the top tube, he's probably guilty of fraud. In this case, the seller should pay for shipping both ways if the buyer's description of events is accurate.

+1 It is a repaint already.

+1 Seller used obviously deceiving pictures.

File a claim with paypal, be prepared to have to return the entire bike. So if the components you got with the bike are worth the total price paid, just consider this one to be a less terrific deal than you thought. But if you are upside down value wise, I would work through paypal, and be ready to return it.

I think that one never has the right to negotiate after the fact. You can accept and shut up or you can return the object. Those are your only two options. If the seller then prefers to offer you a discount rather than accept a return of the item, that is up to them but you have no right to bring up the topic or insist on anything.

It is furthermore always the responsibility of the buyer to be aware of what they buy. Old bike values are made up of two elements: the usable value and the collectible value. The winning price that you paid was based upon the overall knowledge of all the potential buyers out there. I can assure you that others who did their homework will have discounted their bids to take into account the need of a repaint to be able to bring the frame up to snuff as far as collectibility goes. As I said, the bike is fully usable as is and therefore has not suffered any depreciation in its usable value due to the paint. The non-original paint has already hurt the collectibility value to such a point that one had no right to claim any added value for collectibility. So if you as a beginning collector are bidding on a bike thinking that it has a certain collectibility factor, it is your responsibility and only your responsibility to know how to evaluate this correctly. Like I said, you were the one who decided to play with the big boys and assign an added value to this bike for the fact that it was a Cinelli and not some other less desirable frame, you must therefore be big enough to recognize that you are out of your league and were not sufficiently knowledgeable to play this game.

If this was the bike on German ebay a while back, I remember it quite well and had no problem at all to discount the overall value of the bike to be that of a no-name Italian frame in rideable shape with a 50th anniversary gruppo. No more no less. If it was indeed that bike, you got a price that was fair but far from a screaming deal.

You just can't get away from the dick heads. No matter how hard you try, no matter where in the world you go, you just can't get away from the dick heads. There are just too many of them.

Citoyen du Monde: This has nothing to do with "playing with the big Boys" or "beginning collector"!
If you sell a bike with Campagnolo 50th anniversary and Cinelli frame n°xxxx you show that you are aware of the collectibillity of a bike that is almost 30 years old.
When you then show over 20 pictures plus provide extra pictures per mail and you don`t show these scratches on the toptube you are ripping of people. No matter who
is the buyer. The seller has the responsability to provide all the informations available about the item that is sold. Here he hasn`t done it, that`s the point!

By reading your posts I almost think you are the one who sold me the bike....

Then however it can`t be you since by negotiating I meant I wrote a complain to the seller and hoped to get an answer. However, till now the seller hasn`t posted a reply. Not over Ebay,
not per Mail.

Reading your post, I take that you have spent fewer years on earth than I have been involved with bikes (going on 35 years). I do not state this to pull rank on you, but simply as a basis to tell you that you have much to learn about vintage bikes as well as how to deal with the buying and selling of bikes. Everybody makes mistakes at the beginning. However, for most C&Vers, because they are generally located in the US, the errors are generally on lower level bikes. Being in Europe and being confronted on a regular basis by bikes which would seem to offer the chance of major financial gain, you will easily get lulled into believing that trading in vintage bikes is without risks. Nothing can be further from the truth. In this case, you based your purchase on wishful thinking as you had what you yourself claim to be incomplete and not terribly good photos. If this is indeed the same bike that I saw on German Ebay, it took me less than a few seconds to completely discount the bike (http://cgi.ebay.de/Rennrad-Cinelli-C...-/160439069448). Furthermore, the seller writes very clearly in his description: "div. kleine Lackschäden...Nutzungsspuren vorhanden" which for the unilingual translates to: "Various small points of paint damage... Traces of use do exist". He also points out that the saddle has been recovered, which further goes to emphasize the fact that the bike has led a hard life. Lastly, the fact that the bike has a bell mounted means that it has been used for commuting duty and or almost exclusively for city riding: once again a sure sign of hard life. This is about as clear as you can get in Ebay-speak to say the frame is gnarly and the bike has been ridden hard and put away wet. One look at the main auction photo also highlights that paint is not original.

As they say, at its best, ebay is world where one needs to go by the saying "Buyer beware". The seller is required not to lie, but by the same token is not required to state point out every potential defect. It is up to the buyer to assign a value based upon the available information. Here the seller spelled it out that the bike had damaged paint and even given that warning you still went ahead with the purchase. At this point you need to stop whining, accept your own responsibility and not go back on your contracted price.

BTW, the final price that you paid is still not that bad. You can readily come out ahead after paying for a European repaint or by parting out the bike... Had the bike had original paint, even with "traces of use", you could not have touched it for less than 1500 euros. When you disclose that it has "various small points of paint damage", the price drops.

PS: Why don't you post the additional 20 photos supplied by the seller so that we can see that you are also neglecting to disclose further details provided by the seller.

Thank you for your post Citoyen du Monde.
Of course you are right with the fact that I am much newer to vintage bikes than you are. There is no doubt. And I still have a lot to learn, who doesn`t. ;)

I was aware that this bike isn`t anymore in perfect condition and that it has been riden a lot. You can see that as you say on the first picture provided. However,
this doesn`t mean you can lie on the rest. If you do, ok, but I guess you won`t have a lot of satisfied custumers. Oh, I forgot to mention. After I payed for the item
the seller asked me not to give him a review because he doesn`t want that the bike shows up with a that high price on his profile. Strange, no?

The link you posted is the right one. Only too bad that the seller already disabled all the pictures that were included in the auction. But as you followed the auction,
you should know there were lots of pics and you also should know that there was none showing the top of the Toptube.

I could upload all the pictures he posted to me and then post them here in the forum but what would that help? nothing! I could post an tons of pictures and just don`t post the
one (there is none) which shows the scratches on the toptube. Or you believe me or you don`t. It`s your choice, but why should I lie?

As the bike is old and I see that the paint is not anymore in best condition I take "div. kleine Lackschäden) as the genaral issues. Of course you can`t list every little issue. However if there is a big one and you are an honest seller you try to show it to the potential buyer.
Plus, if he didn`t do it on purpose I don`t see why he does not even reply to my complaint.

But now forget about this. It is only my problem and the one of seller (maby).

My question and that`s why I posted the thread was to now what I should do to sell the frame for the best money ( without ripping somebody off by neglecting some issues). Repaint or not Repaint?