"Beautiful. I'd have no problems with adding shifter bosses, getting the fork and rear brake bridge drilled for recessed brakes, getting it repainted, and then ride the hell out of it.

Pete "

The above is a response from Mudboy about the Eisentraut garage sale find. I am one of the people that usually screams "don't even repaint it" but am surprised that I went "hmm, that makes sense" to the above. I have a mid 80's Merckx that I am thinking of adding fender eyelets and maybe even frame couplers to...

How far is TOO much for you?

vjp

I own an Eisentraut. I wouldn't let anyone touch it to do those things without having the man himself do it. Except for the riding part, that's for me.

Anything that involves a drill, a grinder, or a welder of some kind is too much. The one exception is for repairs of course. If something is broken (like a rear dropout), then a repair is required.

If someone wants to do that much work on a bike, then I would consider just looking for a great deal on a modern bike. My basic rule is "Is the modification reversible?". So putting a 2003 Ultegra drivetrain on my 1987 Prologue is fine with me. To me, it doesn't matter where you got it. Suppose you got a Waterford Paramount at a thrift store for $10.

I think modifying a classic frame with torches should be carefully considered before acting. Real carefully. And I would probably end up avoiding it in most cases.

Repainting a rare and historic frame? This is harder. How far gone is it? Like most I'm drawn towards shiny, gleaming vintage specimens. What's the personal threshold where enjoying the looks of the bike is marred by frustration over excessive patina?

Reproduction decals are never perfect. Close, maybe, but is that good enough? Some custom builders hand painted the decals, and are now out of business or deceased. It would be a crime to touch these with a fresh coat of enamel.

That makes two of us. And having "The Man" do it is getting more iffy by the day.

Interestingly enough, if you look at a lot of Herse and Singer rando bikes from the 50's and early 60's, they've been updated over the years to take more modern components, especially rear derailleurs, but also brakes, etc. And the work was usually done by the original builder.

That said, I wouldn't hand my 'Traut (or Herse or Singer if I had one) over to any old Joe to take a torch to it, except MAYBE to replace a broken tube (which I do need to have done) or dropout.

As an aside, I approached Albert about repairing my frame after the collision which resulted in a cracked headtube, and he was distinctly cool to the suggestion. He wasn't big on doing frame repairs in general, saying that "if it cracked there, it'll just crack somewhere else later. Time to move on".

SP
Bend, OR

The problem I see with "shiny, gleaming vintage specimens" is that if its a restoration, the bike often ends up looking better than it did when it was new, and even if it's original it looks more like a trophy that's been hanging on someone's living room wall and never ridden. Either one is a sad state of affairs in my book. Bikes (most bikes anyway) are made to be ridden, the more the better.

The "excessive patina" issue is rather more difficult. There is such a thing, but if the bike's been honestly used (not abused) the patina is rarely "excessinve". Is it the result of the bike being ridden long, hard and often? Or has it been sitting in a barn with pigeons sh***ing on it for decades? Are the paint and decals dull from years of loving use, or years of neglect? I think you can see where I stand on this. To me it's far more interesting to look at a bike that was built and USED for a purpose, a cooperative effort between the builder and the rider, if you will. Rather like my former neighbor's 1954 Jaguar XK120(?) that had been in the family since 1960. Not a daily driver by any means, but still original, lovingly cared for, with plenty of patina.

I'll get down off my soapbox now.

SP
Bend, OR

I usually stop at bare steel, assuming the derailer hangers and cable guides are gone.

I've got an '83 Trek 520 that had some serious paint issues and a tiny, but very noticeable ding on the downtube. It's been blasted back to bare metal and I'm considering having canti and dt shifter bosses and maybe even a FD tab added to the frame, as well as spreading the rear drops before I have it painted. I think it will be much improved.

To me, a lot has to do with what you want the bike for. Do you want a period-perfect piece of wall art? Don't touch a thing. Do you want to be able to ride it anytime, anywhere? Then do what it needs to make that happen. Is the paint shot? Get it painted. You love the way it looks now? Don't get it painted. At the end of the day, it is an individual decision.

I loooooove looking at 1970's era classic steel done up in NR or SR componentry. They make my little heart go pitter-patter. But for where I live and how I ride, they are useless as riders - a 42x28 low gear just is not going to get it done. And modern brakes work better - they just do. So I have classic lugged steel with Shimano 9-speed with barcons (on one bike) or Campy 10-speed with brifters (on two others, and another on the way). I ride 'em all, and can ride where I live because I have either a 26x26 or a 30x29 low gear on them. Some probably I am a heartless Phillistine. They may be right, but I don't much care.

As for "value," very, very few high-end bikes are sound investments, and they weren't meant to be. Any work you decide to have done or not have done should not be made with the idea of maximizing your return unless you have the bike solely for flipping. If your plan is to ride it, make it a bike you want to ride. After all, it's your bike, not ours.

Of course, if you do something to it any of us don't like, we will point and laugh at you, but that really is about as far as it goes. All I ask is: Please don't hack anything off. Otherwise, make yourself happy.

I added cable guides, downtube shifter bosses, and water bottle mounts to my paramount years ago. Of course the pump boss sticking out from the head tube is worthless now, eh? Glad I did not put on cantilever brake mounts - Because my centerpulls do have enough room to adjust for 700c if need be.

Guess what I am saying is - not knowing what the future will bring - had I done the cantilever bosses - may have had to get them moved later and the frame repainted (which we will probably do with the tandem but it needs new pain anyway.

Probably ruins a bike for collectability but is functionally nicer. It is, after just a bicycle. It can either hang on display or you can ride it until it dies a noble death.

Oh bikingshearer - I had my post up while you posted - agreed! So don't go laughing at my lavender paramount with pink toe clip straps and brake cables!

I don't feel bad about modifying and painting a production frame like my Raleigh Competition, but a rare handmade work of art like an Eisentraut is a different story.

Touch up paint on a top shelf frame is the comfort level for me.

I'm still hemming and hawing over a repaint on a Casati Gold Line S.

I'm starting to come to terms with a repaint of the stays only.

Problem there is a paint match.

I know in my heart it needs it, but I also know how difficult matching paint is in most cases.

By the way, I never blink if others would want to add eyelets or other braze-ons to a frame.

It is their property after all.

I do not alter frames... to the OP's question, there are ways to put dual pivot brakes and modern downtube shifters without messing up with the bike.
If I want a bike for a different purpose than a particular bike, I get another one and might keep or move on that particular bike...

Get your hands off the Eisentraut.



-Kurt

This doesn't bother me at all, much like my thoughts on the Merckx, not THAT rare a bike, and the end utility of it would be awesome.

I have an early 60's Cinelli Mod. B frame and fork that is a different story, it has NO paint or decals, the fender eyelets were removed, it has had a dropout repair and a set of bottle bosses were added ( brass nuts so probably an older modification ) . When I brought up the idea of modifying it before ( it is my French Fit ) for a fendered rando bike it was met with almost a 100% NO!!

vjp

Depends. Is it something truly rare? I'd leave it alone even if in poor condition. It is something that was hot stuff back in the day -- but not a true rarity -- and it's been abused or neglected, and is in horrible condition, with original parts broken or missing? If it's the later, then I look upon it as a cycling canvas, just waiting for me, the torch artist, to make it one of a kind.

[QUOTE=vjp;1105188 I have a mid 80's Merckx that I am thinking of adding fender eyelets and maybe even frame couplers to...[/QUOTE]

There is a special place in hell (maybe not hell but at least heck) for anyone who would do that to a Merckx.

(I'm kidding - it's your bike do what you want)

I say do what you need to. If it makes the bike more functional or more rideable, do it. There were intended for riding afterall

I say it's up to the owner, of course. I might cringe, but I can't call it "wrong."

I don't respect period correctness or original equipment most of the time. I started caring about it recently, and I worry that I'm becoming a curmudgeon. I am going to keep an English 3-speed original by not upgrading the twist-shift with a trigger shift. I also plan to sell this bike.

I'm also fixing up an old English 3-speed for someone, and I agreed to give her two quotes: one for functional parts and one for period-correct parts. She'll decide once I give her the options.

I don't think anybody objects to non-correct bolt on parts. It irreversable frame modifications we're talking about here.

Here's an example. The fool cut off all of the braze ons just to adapt the frame to sidepull brakes and a Sturmey Archer 5 speed hub. All of the bolt on parts are incorrect, too. It's painted an incorrect color and the down tube decal is incorrect. I'm sure there's a special place in hell reserved for people like him.

I've modified a Shogun for recessed bolt calipers. That's it for me, frame-wise.
I'm simply too stupid, and the ruination of a frame would be the likely outcome.

It depends, as many have said, on rarity, condition, &c.

It also depends on history, or pedigree.

Case in point:

I have a 1982 Trek 720 I bought as a new frame in the summer of '83. I hated the color so much I almost didn't buy it, and I consoled myself, as I left the shop with it, that I'd paint it over. Now I have. I've ridden the hell out of it. Like 23Skiddoo, I want to add cantilever brazeonns.. Why not? It's my bike.

Compare and contrast, I have a 1984 Counterpoint Opus II. Got it pretty recently, but it's immaculately preserved. Serial number 21. I considered, for a while, having disk brake mounts and horizontal dropouts installed so I could run a Rohloff hub; ended up running the Rohloff for 1500 miles with a chain tensioner and eventually put the bike back to original configuration without doing anything to the frame. SOmehow it doesn't feel like my bike; it's a classic that has stood the test of 25+ years, and I'm taking care of it for a while. I have no right to change it, really... do I? Ethically, I mean. Not legally, I don't care about that!

Many changes were done at a point in time when today's classic or vintage bikes were just used bikes that were not up to date.

They needed paint, got modified.

If still original today, then the quantity of other examples if any would guide a decision.

I had bikes from the 70's that were just used bikes in the mid 80's they got updated to a point. I was hesitant to spread my own from 120 mm to 126 mm but that was just me, having ultra 6 freewheels made the decision to keep the original spacing was easy.

I have sent frames back to the factory in the day and add ons were no problem for the builder.

If you want to maintain a bike for maximum value in the near future, then leave it alone.

Personally I am entertaining the idea of keeping an old rare classic more useful by going to modern cranks and aero brake levers, the latest from Cane Creek and others can even be had with "gum" hoods, they are better ergonomically. I can always restore the bike to original later.
I don't NEED index shifting. but I do think there would be a market for a 126 mm O.L.D. rear hub that accepted a reduced modern cassette (less a cog or two) then I could go ergo without going from 120 to 130 mm .... I wonder of the electra hubs could be reworked...

+ 1000

Personally, I wouldn't drill, grind or otherwise irreversibly alter an Eisentraut 'A' or Rainbow Traut, and I'm
not even sure about a Limited.


Marty