juls

Has 2 serial numbers (?) Can I surmise that the 3rd digit would be he year? Had a cottered spindle in it engraved "16GC" No letters in the numbers-but holland/gazelle sticker. Didn't jive with anything I found on the 'Headbadge' web site. May have been cold spaced (over 120 back there) 73 sound plausable? BB-3035196/d.o.-0137062.....The badge just has 2 horizontal lines at the bottom....Thanks for any input

cudak888 

The Grand Prix was produced in that scheme (with the post-1972 decals) from 1973 through 1976.

I was discussing the Holland GP serial system just last night with a forum member, via PM. We were debating whether the early 1973 serial system (one of two others systems that I haven't posted to The Headbadge due to limited data), and the revised serial system that Nottingham adopted in mid 1973 - the "N(letter)(year)(6 digits) system - was carried out by Holland at the same time it was carried out at Nottingham.

In other words, if Holland followed Nottingham procedure, you have an early 1973 frame. If they didn't, you could have anything.

At this point, what you'll want to do is round up as many post-1972 Holland GP's as you can, and see what serial system they have.

EDIT: If you can find one with an Gx3xxxxxx or Gx4xxxxxx serial, you have a '73.

-Kurt

gbalke

I'll toss in my 2 cents worth. My GP is a Gazzelle made in Holland. I just checked the serial number on side of seat tube: GN415997. The original owner told me it was a 1976, and based on the ctalog scan on Retro raleighs, I found this completely believeable. But if the serial number data is correct, this would make it a 1974? Oh, there are only 5 digits following the year, not 6 as you mentioned Kurt.

juls

Thanks for the replies. This forum is my search engine. Also old rds. No mention of 2#'s and absense of letters. Hard to source out whats not there. Tough to date without any components. I managed to piece it together (90%) with my collection of parts; reused the cups. I'll go with 70's, and call it a day.

auchencrow

That's a good looking GP.

. . . So now we have seen Post-72 block decal Holland GP's with (at least) 3 variations:

Alpha-alpha +6 place Num on the seat tube,
6 place Num on the seat tube,
7 place Num on the bottom bracket shell, with a 7 place Num on the DO

ianbrettcooper

Just thought I'd post here. I've posted this on another forum - not sure if all members here are aware of it (though I know some are), so here goes...

Last week I purchased a Gazelle made Raleigh Grand Prix. From the components I estimate it's a bike made in 1974. I'd like to find out more info, but I can't make heads nor tails of the serial number or frame number on the bike. Here's what I do know:

Model #: DL115
Number on left drop-out: 0198514
Number on bottom bracket: 2°95756
Colour: white with black trim
10 speed, downtube shifters

Brakes (front): Weinmann 610 Vainqueur 999 centre pull
Brakes (rear): Weinmann 750 Vainqueur 999 centre pull
Brake levers: Weinmann (originally with extension levers that have been removed)
Cable and Bar Tape: white cable, perforated black vinyl bar tape
Crankset: 40/52T
Derailleur (front): Simplex
Derailleur (rear): Simplex Prestige (appears to be AR 637/P, marked 'Simplex' on red background, inside says "Prestige Simplex, Breveté, S.G.D.G, Made in France", dated 1/71)
Frame: Raleigh 20-30 tubing fully lugged, 21 1/2"
Hubs: M.M. Atom. Made in France, dated '74.
Pedals: quill pattern
Rear Cluster: 14-28T
Stem: 'GB' forged alloy

Strangely, the rims appear to be Schwinn Tubular S6. Not sure why a Raleigh made in Holland would get Schwinn rims. I'm assuming the Gazelle Raleighs were earmarked for the US market - maybe that explains it.

I'm pretty sure it's the 1974 model. The 1973 model seems to have had no brake lever extensions and the 1975 model had Huret Challenger derailleurs and a shallower fork rake.

Unfortunately neither of the numbers on my bike's frame conform to the known numbering systems, so although my bike's serial number should start with a G, it doesn't. In fact, neither of the numbers found on my frame (one on the drop-out, one on the BB - there's no number on the seat tube) contain any letters at all, so I'm stuck. It's been suggested that the bike frame was made in '72 or '73, which might explain why the '74 system isn't in evidence, but it can't be a '72 - they had Tru-Wel frames and only came in red or blue, and it seems strange to me (though possible) that a '73 Grand Prix would be fitted with the pedals and brakes of a 1974 model. I guess it's possible that it's actually a '71, but I can't find any catalogues from '71 online.

I'm starting to think that, as someone suggested, it must be a '73 frame that just didn't get out of the door until '74. That would make sense in terms of the lack of a G in the serial number. What still doesn't make sense is that it can't be the '71 numbering system and if it's the late '60s numbering system, the only year that makes sense is 1971. Could a 1971 frame have been made of 20-30 tubing and become lost in the factory until 1974? Could it have been a Tru-Wel frame that got mislabelled as 20-30 and become lost until '74? These seem like convoluted explanations. The simplest answer is surely that the serial number is simply missing or from a numbering system we don't know about.

Any info would be greatly appreciated. I'm not much of a bike aficionado, so I'd really enjoy reading any thoughts from anyone more knowledgeable than me (by which I mean anyone).

Thanks.

redneckwes

I don't have anything substantial to ad to the discussion. I have never found a Gazelle made G.P., though I'd like to.

Is 20-30 really a different material from Tru-wel? Both are "house blends" as far as I know. You 20-30 decal might be a replacement too.

cinco

Funny, I didn't know any GPs were made by Gazelle until one popped up today on the local CL. The seller claimed, I searched, the thread is current, and I learned something new.

It's just too bad that the CL Grand Prix has been in a nasty front-end collision that the seller apparently doesn't know about. On the other hand, he's also selling a Nishiki with a fairly dangerous top tube dent so maybe he IS aware.

cudak888 

Gbalke's example, plus another 1974 GG4xxxxx frame just now emailed to me indicates that Gazelle did adopt the revised serial system in 1974, hence, any Grand Prix with the number-only sequence and the new-for-1973, italicized Raleigh decal kit can safely be assumed to be a 1973.

Only in your experience with that Grand Prix - just because one Raleigh used 5 digits following the xx0 code is not grounds to exclude 6-digit examples, which exist. Though I haven't personally collected serial numbers for these systems, I do have two confirmed examples of a 1979 Rudge and a 1980 Super Grand Prix with 6 digits (which so happen to serve as the SN example images on The Headbadge):





Mind you, that other 1974 Holland Grand Prix also used 5 digits following the year, so 5 digits may be the norm for the Holland frames. I'd need to see more examples to be sure; so far, I've been brimming with nothing but emails of 1973 frames with the earlier number-only system.

-Kurt

P.S.: Indeed, yours is a '74, gbalke.

cudak888 

P.S.: ianbrettcooper; gbalke - would you gentlemen allow me to use a few of your Grand Prix photos on The Headbadge? I'm putting a little writeup together about them, and could use some of these images.

-Kurt

cudak888 

Serial indicates no later than 1973. Again, a frame production date, not a component date. You're probably right about the frame having been hung up for a bit.

Someone replaced them. Most likely, someone with a Schwinn Super Sport or Sports Tourist took the rims off the GP to upgrade the Schwinn, and kicked the GP out wearing the Schwinn's detestable S-6 rims.

If you're getting this information from the catalog, forget it. The catalogs lie twice worse than some of the less-decipherable serial numbers. Raleigh's components and fork rakes often changed on a whim, especially on the lower-end stuff. Being that the Grand Prix was numero-uno on Raleigh's 10-speed best-seller list, it could, did, and can be found with any fork rake, with either Simplex or Huret in '75 and '76. I bet you'll see a lot more with Simplex.

It does, I just haven't published it until I have enough serials to shut up the occasional naysayers. It fits in fine with the '73 system, and its not the first 7-digit GP with a 0 at the head of the serial either.

So far, I haven't seen any 1973 Gazelle G-serials, only '74s and up. It doesn't exclude them, but the fact is that most '73 Gazelle models used the older 6 or 7 digit system that I mentioned.

Tru-weld: Raleigh buzz-term. I haven't seen a '73 yet wearing anything but a 20-30 decal. No '72 Raleigh would wear that decal system. None, never. Period.

Without question, the only possible explanation.

-Kurt

ianbrettcooper

You're welcome to use any of mine. I'd be very interested to see the article. Let me know if you need any better shots and I'll take the bike and the good camera out and do a sexy photoshoot in the back yard, hehe.

By the way, thanks for the info on the bike. Something still bothers me though - if the serial number is the one that starts with 0 (on the drop out), what is the number on the BB for?

cudak888 

The Gazelle decal was what I was after, though if you could get me a sharp photo of the dropout serial number, that would be excellent. Thank you.

I have no idea where those 3xxxxxx serials popped up from - I've seen frames with those SN's exclusively, and I've seen them doubled up as well. So far, the dropout serials appear much more common; the 3xxxxxx serials might have been one of Raleigh's crazy experiments.

-Kurt

P.S.: I could really use a photo of the earlier, 1972 cursive downtube decal, if anyone has an example.

gbalke

Kurt,

This is a link to my Flickr Grand prix set, feel free to use any image you want: https://www.flickr.com/photos/stl914/...7622060696215/

I need to add a photo of the serial number to the set, I have it stored on my other laptop and can add that later this morning. Look at the set
and let me know if you need anything else.

Gary

cudak888 

Thank you very much. As a matter of fact, the S.N. image is pretty much the only other image I could really use off that bike.

-Kurt

P.S. to Juls - would you allow me to use that rear dropout photo for the meantime?

cudak888 

Before I forget, here is the final testbed of the page. I haven't linked it on The Headbadge yet, for I still have Juls photograph of his dropout on it, and I don't have permission from him, yet:

The Raleigh Grand Prix models from Gazelle of Holland

-Kurt

gbalke

That page looks fantastic. You do good work, Kurt.

I know that you're mainly trying to take the mystery out of the serial numbering system, but would this also be a good arena to discuss the differences in the bottom bracket and head set threading of Gazelle made GP's; the British 24tpi vs Raleigh's 26tpi? Just a thought.

Gary

cudak888 

Thanks Gary. Most importantly, I hope that it can serve as a quick reference for ID'ing Grand Prix frames; quite a few discussions have come and gone wherein a simple page such as this could have answered the most frequently asked questions about the Grand Prix.

As for threading, there's something I know nothing about when it comes to the Gazelle models - I've never worked on a Gazelle GP, or a Gazelle Raleigh, for that matter. Do they have 24tpi or 26? You fellows will have to fill me in on this, and I can add it to the page.

-Kurt

ianbrettcooper

Took a couple of pics, one with flash, one without. Lighting is not good either way - even tried rubbing some goo into the numbers, LOL.



I took a quick look at your page - lovely job. I did notice one typo - the manufacturer is Gazelle Rijwielfabriek - that u is actually a ij (it's pronounced Rye-wheel-fabreek). For some unknown reason the Dutch like to mash the i and the j together so that it looks like a U with a bit missing. Hehe, I only know that because I wasted part of my youth in Holland.

juls

Sure, use any image that helps. Sorry for the fuzzy images-a phone camera is all I have....

cudak888 

Just added the DO photo, and fixed the spelling. Page is done, though I will add ianbrettcooper's serial photo when he posts it.

The Raleigh Grand Prix models from Gazelle of Holland



I used the BB photo. Works perfectly.

-Kurt

ianbrettcooper

Finally got a decent photo of the serial number. Here it is:

sailorbenjamin

Here's mine, It's got cursive letters, Simplex shifters, Suntour deraillers (probably replaced), 20-30 tubing and Brompton hubs, with a flip flop rear. The cranks have a 74 cast into them. The number on the BB is 2815895, there is no number on the dropout or seat tube.

redneckwes

Great work on the webpage Kurt!

On top of all this, (Worksop, Nottingham, and Gazelle). Raleigh made identical machines, in detail and decal, in Canada in the 70's. Not sure how many made it into the distribution chain in the states, but there is one in my basement.

I believe R serials denote Canadian production.

ianbrettcooper

Can anyone tell me what sort of rims and hubs these bikes left the factory with?