Charles Wahl

I have this Motobecane Team Champion frame with cracked rear dropout that I got re-welded.



Clearly, it's got a Campy-style threaded rear dropout. And yet the specs for the bike say that it had a Simplex SLJ 6600 rear derailer. Unfortunately, the frame came with no derailers. I'm just wondering if there was a version of the Simplex RD that came equipped to fit such a dropout.

I have plenty of nice derailers I could use (including an SLJ 6600 that's for a Simplex unthreaded dropout), but I'd like to build this bike more or less as a restoration -- therein lies the problem.

Grand Bois

That's interesting. I was told that these derailers came from a Team Champion. The RD is set up for the old style Simplex hanger, but I think it mayl work on a Campy style hanger with just a change to a threaded top bolt. I think I have a threaded top bolt for it. I'll check it out tomorrow and get back to you. It's a drop parallelogram SLJ, but it bears little resemblance to a SLJ6600 Aerodynamic. I understand that it was made especially for the Team Champion.

Grand Bois

My derailer is set up to work on any derailer hanger, even Huret. It does not utilize the threads. It can't because the top pivot is sprung. Turning the top bolt just winds up the spring. You bolt it on from the back, as you would on an old Simplex hanger. The bolt is extra long to fit thicker hangers. I might be willing to trade mine for a 6600 Aerodynamic in good condition, but I'm not anxious to get rid of it. I like it alot.

I saw one in Kurt's display case the last time he posted pictures of it. Maybe he'll make you a better deal.

redcaymatt

The SLJ 6600 I have bolts onto the hanger from behind same as Grand Bois.

Grand Bois

I think all Simplex derailers bolt from behind because they're all top sprung.

miamijim

Charles, your Simplex hanger is of the hybrid style, it can accept either Campagnolo or simplex type derailleurs. I've attached a few pics and a link from my site that may help....

https://cyclespeugeot.com/Threading.html

Charles Wahl

Mine is an Aerodynamic, and in quite good condition, but not pristine -- has some rash in the usual place under the outer parallelogram plate by the top pivot, and a bit of chain rash on the jockey wheel plates too.

This RD fits a PX-10 with the standard Simplex unthreaded dropouts perfectly. I assume that the tab on the sprung top plate just outside the hanger meets the top-front of the hanger casting; that looks right anyway. The mounting bolt with shoulder won't fit through a Campy threaded dropout: the Simplex dropout has 8.9 mm clearance, while the inside of the threads on the Campy is only about 8.2. What's with all this “you can retap your Simplex dropout for a Campy-style derailer” stuff? Seems like you'd end up with practically nothing, thread-wise!

Maybe I can get the right sort of bolt (with low-profile head) and find or make a smaller collar for it.

I notice that because the Campy dropout hanger has a front profile that slopes backward (like the Simplex ones miamijim illustrates above), while the Simplex dropout on my PX-10 is basically vertical off the hanger, thus the derailer's spring action would be biased to be rotated somewhat more clockwise (looking from drive side) on a Campy dropout than on the PX-10 hanger. Would that make a difference to operation?

I'll try to post explanatory pictures later, but right now I have to go watch the end of the NYC Mayor's Cup kayak race (around the island).

cudak888 

No chance. I won't trade for anything other than an identical SLJ w/o the Moto badge.

-Kurt

miamijim

Charles,

If your hanger is threaded it will accept a Cmapy stayle derailleur with no issues. I see no reason whi the Simplex bolt wouldnt fit into the threaded opening. The first pic I posted in post #6 clearly shows a simplex bolt from beind derailleur mounted to a Campy style threaded dropout.

Charles Wahl

OK, Jim -- it seems that you're correct. I tried the Simplex shouldered bolt in another Campy dropout on another frame, and it fits. The first one I tried must just be a bit narrower (the bolt fits the wrong way around, but not the right way). So I guess I'm good to go.

What about the question I asked above: is the location/angle of what you're calling the “notch for derailleur tang” critical? Or will a Simplex derailer fit on any bike with a braze-on hanger?

Grand Bois

[QUOTE=Charles Wahl;11288537]What's with all this “you can retap your Simplex dropout for a Campy-style derailer” stuff? Seems like you'd end up with practically nothing, thread-wise!/QUOTE]

I guess you're right. It'll never work.

Charles Wahl

I stand corrected. The slightly small Campy dropout I was using as a test threw me off. Beg pardon.

Grand Bois

I have a better idea.



Remove with a blow dryer. Install with a hot glue gun.

There are no derailers identical to yours without the Moto badge because that model was made especially for the Moto Team Champion.

I was going to offer to send Charles my front and rear Moto tags, but I can't find my bag of badges. It happens every time I clean up the shop. Last time it was a Mafac Competition bridge wire.

cudak888 

What was the equivalent non-Moto SLJ drop parallelogram model then, if any?

-Kurt

Grand Bois

The SLJ 6600 Aerodynamic that Charles has. See Velobase.

The Moto SLJ almost looks like an SX610 with SLJ arms and cage.

SX610

cudak888 

Just looked at it. There are certainly quite a few noticeable casting differences between the SLJ 6600 and the Moto SLJ, yes, but isn't the Moto SLJ based on the SLJ 6000 casting?

I wouldn't understand why Simplex would go through the trouble to re-tool the 6600 just for Moto, and the Velobase SLJ 6000 seems to have all the upper arm casting differences present in the Moto RD.

-Kurt

Charles Wahl

Here's the 6600 from Velobase



Mine looks exactly like that, except that it doesn't have the wide web between top pivot and left adjusting screw; instead mine looks like the one Grand Bois posted in #13 (but with the black/nylon heads on the pivots rather than chromed).

I don't see the difference between the rear derailers GB posted in #2 and #13, other than the badge. the cable clamp looks the same in #2 as in #13, but maybe I'm just not seeing enough of it.

cudak888 

Differences:

1. Badge
2. Casting web
3. Recess in upper casting for "Aerodynamic"
4. Pivots

All the casting differences appear to be on the upper body.

Take care,

-Kurt

Grand Bois

You don't see a difference because the two pictures because they are of the same derailer. The point was to show Kurt that he could just change badges if he wanted the same derailer without the Moto badge. You and Kurt could just swap badges. He'll have what he said he wants and you'll have almost the correct derailer with the correct badge. I'm sure that very few people will know the difference.

cudak888 

But aren't the Moto RD's based on the SLJ 6000 casting (not 6600's, but 6000s) to begin with? From what I can see, the SLJ 6000's upper body is the same as the Moto arm.

-Kurt

miamijim

Kurt,

Ignore the 'Moto' badges, they're just a marketing exercise. Simplex simply slapped Peugeot and Moto badges on them.

Jim

miamijim

Charles, I dont think its to critical. The attached pic is from my 1982 Peugeot PH12 which was/is equipted with a bolt from behind Simplex SX 610 derailleur. As you can see the 'notch is fairly high. The 'notch' location will dictate how parralell the derailleur body is to the chain stay. A lower notch will open up the angle while a higher notch will close up the angle.

If you mount the Simplex to a hanger that doesnt allow a realtively tight angle with the chainstay you may have an issue. Keep in mind that modern manufacturers recommend a slightly open angle which is adjusted with what Shimano refers to as the 'B' screw. Looking over current day Shimano tech docs it looks like they recommend the 'B' be adjusted so there's as small an angle as possible as long as the RD upper pulley doesnt touch the freewheel cogs.

Charles Wahl

Thanks, Jim.

I don't really care that much about whether the RD has a Moto badge or not -- the FD I have for the bike has a Simplex badge too.

One more question: there's a guard on the inner jockey wheel plate that curves toward the jockey wheel. Does that belong on the bottom jockey wheel (as on GB's pics of 6600 and SX610) or on the upper one (as the plate is installed on my derailer)? It seems to me that the chain is more likely to want to wander off the upper jockey wheel; but I'm no derailer engineer.

Grand Bois

Now you've pissed me off.

miamijim

I'm going to tread very lightly here.......

The 'gaurd' belongs on the upper jockey wheel.