Appropriate frame for three-speed build
 

I'm about to hang up up my Raleigh Sports--it's a fun bike, has great sentimental value (it was my dad's), and I really like the two-cog conversion with rear derailleur that makes it into a very useful 6-speed. But it's just way too small--a 23-inch frame, while I ordinarily ride a 25. It's cramped, and it makes my neck hurt.
So my plan is to make a new one on a larger 25 inch frame, using a set of 27-inch wheels I built up on Mavic G40 rims, with a 1964 AW in back and a Normandy high-flange front. I could use any frame, of course, but I'd like to remain sort of true to the Raleigh Sports idea. I'd been thinking of something like a Super Course frame, or even a Gran Sport, but now I'm thinking that something like a Grand Prix might be more fitting. I don't rule out a higher-end frame if I stumble onto one, but I'm leaning less toward a 531-tubed Clubman-type build than a workingman's 2030-tubed bike that's more or less what a Sports would be if Raleigh had made it in a larger size. (I know, a roadster is a possibility, but I live in the hills, and need brakes that work and less dead weight.)
What do people suggest? And does anyone have a suitable frame that they'd consider selling for a reasonable price?

If you want to stay Raleigh, I don't think there's much difference between Sprite, Record, and Grand Prix frames; Grand Prix has fancier lugs and wrapped seat stays (purely decorative), Sprite has fenders and (sometimes) chain guard; all were made in 25" but who knows which you'll find first. Certainly a higher end model would be nice if that turns up first.

I built a 5 speed around a Lambert frame, with "almost matching" Free Spirit fenders, which came out quite nicely. Really, any frame with horizontal dropouts should be fine.

Are you going to keep the 2 cog thing? I'm going to be trying that myself pretty soon.

I thought the Record only came in a 23--I had one in 1970, but maybe I'm remembering wrong.
Definitely going with the two cogs again--my age and the terrain demand it. Suprisingly easy to set up, and works flawlessly--if you choose the cogs right you get a nice half-step between the big S-A jumps.

Jon, I agree with Rudi and would add that for aesthetic reasons those frames (Super Course, Grand Prix, Sprite Record) would work well because they don't have RD dropout hangers. I think the geometry of all were likely pretty similar--not as slack as the Sports, but not particularly aggressive either.

Neal

The '72 Raleigh catalog shows 25 1/2" frame options for the Gran Sport, Super Course, Grand Prix, and Record. You need one of those!

Neal

Record definitely came in a 25.5" frame in the 70's. That was my first ten speed, a yellow one with black panels.

jonwvara,

I just happen to have sitting in my garage a 1974 dated 25-1/2" Grand Prix frame set, consisting of the frame, fork, head set and bottom bracket.

If you PM me your e-mail address, I can send you pictures. Can you tell us where you are?

Thanks for the offer, but I'm in Vermont--a long way from St. Louis. Shipping a derailleur or something is one thing, but a 25 inch frame is something else again. I'm hoping something will turn up between here and the Boston area, because I travel there pretty often to visit family.

So there WAS a big Record. But I remember where I got the 23-inch-only idea: Eugene Sloane's Complete Book Of Bicyclng (circa 1969 or so, I still have my copy) gave some specs for a bunch of bikes, and noted that the Record only came in that one size, which was probably the case then.
Also, did the later Records use standard threading? I understand that the early ones at least used the 26 TPI bottom bracket threading, which could make it a pain to change cranksets.

If you find you need a 26TPI BB cup set, I happen to have an NOS set. I can let it go Cheap.

Mike

I know it isn't a Raleigh, but I used a 25 inch Motobecane Super Mirage for my similar build. Is the '64 AW that you are planning on using 40 hole? Also do you have the longer axle so you can make it fit in a 120 spaced dropout?

I had a 25-inch Super Mirage as well--bought it new in 1979, rode the dickens out of it, and recently gave it to my 26-year-old son, who rides it around Brooklyn. I assume it will get stolen eventually. Great bike, but I want to go with an English frame here.
I built up the rear wheel on a 36-hole AW I bought on ebay. I did replace the axle with a longer one, and ran it briefly on a 120 spaced Dawes frame with a three-cog rear block. It worked well, but with a double in front the shift pattern was idiotically complicated. Forget double shifts--it involved several triple shifts. Also, the bike was such a nice antique I ultimately decided it would be better to keep it all original. My idea here is to make something I can ride in winter and bad weather and not worry as it gets beat up and develops little rust spots, etc.
Here's a picture of that earlier Dawes build.

I've used a Carlton and a Raleigh Competition frame. A bike with lightweight Reynolds 531 frame and a Sturmey Archer hub is a joy to ride. Cost is the only benefit I can think of to using a heavy frame.

Jonwvara- Sheldon's "Superbe" built on a Competiton frame comes to mind. I would lean to frames that have a bit of a slack head tube to preserve the ow stable ride of a Sports.

Gotta question regarding the 3spd IGH/ derailleur set up. Is there an advantage to that over a 5 or 7spd IGH?

Yes, it's more soulful.

One advantage to a 3-speed build is lower cost and wide availability. And, fwiw, I've tried a 5-speed SA hub, 7- and 8-speed Shimano Nexus hubs, but I go back to the old Sturmey Archers for these retro builds (whether AW or FW hubs).

Neal

First of all, AW hubs, and bikes equipped with them, are so common we often find them in the trash; more elaborate hubs are less common and more expensive.

The problem is, a lot of people find the 33% upshifts between gears of an AW to be too big.

If you put two cogs on the AW driver, the larger typically with three teeth more than the smaller, you can split the difference between gears, for six evenly spaced gears and a modest increase in overall range. The resulting 6-speed has a slightly wider range, with closer spacing, than an FW four speed hub; but it is not as wide as a five or seven speed hub.

The best thing is that it's not at all complicated. The driver on the AW has room for two cogs, and since they are normally dished anyway, you simply dish them away from one another and the spacing is right for a derailleur system.

I love my S5/2 five speed hub, but they're hard to find and can be expensive.

Rather than using a double cog and derailleur setup find yourself a SA 5 speed hub. I picked up a NOS SA S5-2 Alloy hub that I used to convert a Kona cruiser to multispeed. Much cleaner looking installation IMO and a wider overall range than using cogs to half step a 3 speed hub. The S5-2 was even the right width to slide right into the Kona dropouts, about 118mm IIRC.

Cool, makes sense and I get it! Thanks for the explanation. I

You're right, a nicer frame would probably make for a better ride. Cost is obviously factor, but a bigger one for me is that I want a bike that I don't have to treat like it's made of glass. One of the things I really like about my too-small Sports is that the paint is thoroughly beat up and chipped, the chainstays are squashed where someone overtightened the kickstand, etc. I didn't have to worry about riding it through mud, road salt, and over bad dirt roads that send little sharp pieces of gravel pinging off the frame. I've got enough bikes that I have to keep clean and pristine.

Jon, if you see something on CL in the Boston area, let me know; I'd be glad to check it out for you.

Neal

I have a Dawes Galaxy in the 25.5" size that I am going to build up as a Clubman. The frame angles aren't quite as slack as the Sports but they are still decent for that type of bike. The original Clubman was only available in smaller sizes and won't fit me.

Aaron :)

Hi Jon, Have you got any of those two or three speed sprocket sets for SA 3 speed hubs spare? C&V member Elcraft has been looking for one for AGES - and I've been looking for him this side of the Atlantic, with no luck at all so far.

If you have, or you know where to get one, please could you PM Elcraft and let him know? He's on a similar kind of mission to you! I know it's a dastardly cheek to interrupt your thread in this way, but we'd both be very grateful to be pointed in the right direction. Thanks!

Hi Stuart,
I think I might be able to help--I'll send a PM.
By the way, I rode through Maidstone (Vermont) the other day and thought of you--would have taken a picture at the town clerk's office to send you, but didn't have a camera with me.
JV