my understanding is that, although the s3x has its origins in the 5speed, there are some very notable differences. One of these differences is the "neutral" stuff mentioned already in this thread, found in older SA IGHs, and bemoaned to no end by the inimitable Jobst Brandt.

With the old SA fixed IGH (the asc) suffering from reliability problems, my concern would be about the s3x's long-term durability, rather than the false neutrals, which one could learn to avoid deftly in time.

I agree with Tom: the threaded AND splined interface for a hg-style cog or threaded freewheel is pure brilliance. IMHO, it's the most impressive feature of the hub.

-rob

The neutrals are rather hard to find, impossible to hit using an indexed shifter unless you don't shift completely. So there are not something to be overcome, the're just there if you look for them

Right, and while Jobst has a respectable point of view, he's extremely conservative and cautious. He and his buddies have more component failures and bad accidents than most. He's tall and very strong. He broke several Campagnolo Record cranks! I feel perfectly safe riding an AW hub, and I'd feel safe riding an S3X. But any bike that comes with it ought to have a warning sticker on the frame: WARNING: Do not shift down while going downhill fast! I imagine that doing so could knock you right off the bike.

What is gear lash? Is it play in the system that you get from shifting?

Velognome, I didn't realize until now that you had taken a new identity.

tom, why would it knock you off the bike? Just b/c you'd suddenly be spinning out faster? Why would anyone downshift on a downhill anyway?

I agree re: jobst brandt. I think he's the most over-rated cycling scribe on planet earth. You can sift through his material and get some nuggets of wisdom/insight, but most of it is plain malarkey.

My concern with the s3x is that, given that it is based on a system that is not supposed to be shifted under load, and that the fixed gear nature of the s3x requires shifting under at least some load, will the internals be fried much sooner than on a standard SA hub? With a thread-on freewheel, this is not a concern, but i'm talking about actual FG use.

hope that makes sense,
-rob

PS-NJ is starting to dominate this thread.

Yep it's me, reality is slipping away....................... .. . .... .. . .

Not to worry about shifting under load, that is what the lash if for. Tom the "lash" is the little bit of float that is experienced between the gears. It was troublesome at first untill I learned how to use it to get incredibly smooth fast shifts. The lash is so that you are not shifting a loaded drivetrain.

Hmmm given the caveats, I think I better do some more in-depth research to try to understand more about this hub. I am not even at the point where I understand exactly what you all are saying...

I did not intend to be alarmist; just thought that the review was interesting information. Not having seen, ridden or taken apart one of these, I couldn't tell you how much the "axle key" looks like it might be an issue. Veloria, it's a part that takes load, and from the technical description, it seems to be integral with the axle. Worse comes to worst, you walk home and replace the axle.

Anybody who's ridden an AW hub knows what gear lash is When you coast, and then re-engage the hub, there's more foot travel required before you're actually engaged than with a derailer and freewheel. For me, it was a minor annoyance at first -- now I just accept it as part of the AW ride.

Avoiding neutral between gears is simply a matter of making sure that your shifting system is adjusted correctly, and works. And anyone who pedals off the saddle with an internal gear hub is looking for trouble anyway, IMO.

None of the above would keep me from buying and using an SX3 hub. For "sporting" commuter/city bikes, esp. with the fixed-or-free option, it sounds like a great idea.

My advice is to try it. You can't describe it until you ride it. Put it on your main FG ride and if it works, transfer it over to your loop frame ride.

Definitely interesting information, thank you for pointing to it!

I may try the hub, but with an inexpensive wheel, as opposed to rebuilding my (rare, proprietary to the bike) wheel around it. I want this bicycle to be reliable - especially in traffic.

Sorry, did not notice this earlier.

3 things:

First, I have found Shimano hubs to be more finicky and more difficult to adjust than the SA (both vintage and new) and Sachs hubs I have ridden. Just my experience; others' impressions may very well differ.

Second, somehow the gearing ratios of the Shimano hubs (both the 3-speed and the 7 speed) just don't seem to agree with my natural rhythm in comparison to the other hubs. I really don't know why, but that's how it feels to me. The gears just always seem off in comparison to where I'd like them to be, whereas with SA and Sachs hubs I don't feel that.

And finally, I don't like it that the Shimano hubs force me to use those twist shifters. I have a whole treatise on that here. I prefer trigger shifters.

Those three observations jibe with my experience with Shimano Nexus 7- and 8-speed hubs. I never could quite find the right gear and thus found myself shifting far too much (all of my riding on single speeds has made me a very lazy shifter). And then they'd get out of adjustment. Very annoying.

Neal

Don't worry about the hub's, or your performance with the hub, in traffic. It works equally well "staying with the flow" or "having a little fun with" traffic. I've found the hub to be reliable and strong, you get the great control of a fixed gear with the ability to change cadence. I've been riding everyday for the last 6 months, simply my favorite around town ride.

Veloria, where are you getting the hub? I heard they were quite expensive when buying them separately. Velognome got a good deal on his, but if you can't get a good deal, you may want to buy a complete bike, yank the hub or rear wheel out, and sell the bike by parting it out.

I'm talking about this bike. It's $380 for the entire bike.

Yes, I think if you shifted down while going fast down a hill, the sudden force of increased cadence would be quite dangerous. Never mind why you would do this. I guess it's equivalent to shifting down from 5th to 1st while driving at highway speeds. It's totally unadvisable, but the "what if" is still a valid question.

Opinions about Jobst vary widely. He is sometimes quite tactless, but his opinions are well based in knowledge and experience. You have to at least listen to the guy, even if you don't agree.

Don't quote me on this, but I think that Harris Cyclery (local to me) may have some pre-built wheels with this hub, so that was my thinking.

I would be careful about buying those cheap bikes just for parts. Not all parts branded the same are created equal.

Sometimes cheap can be surprisingly good. You may pick up an S3X wheelset from BikeIsland. I had similar luck buying a Weinnmann wheelset laced to an S2C kickback hub from Junky Rusty Bikes in Long Beach, CA.

Heck, yes. So many "oem-only" versions exist, and it's among the most brutal scam pulled on customers of new bikes. Suspension forks on mtbs are the most common, but you never know, really. You buy a bike in part b/c you want the BrandX UltaHype fork, only to find that it's a low-end fork with fewer features and more weight that has the "UltraHype" label affixed to it. Bummer.

That being said, i doubt that SA made any lower-end s3x's just for the bikesdirect set. However, you can get the 36h hub, shifter, all the hardware save the cog, for $110 or so. Makes more sense, imho, than the $380 bike. (Unless you need a frame to hang spare parts on.)

-rob

More funny than dangerous. Did it more than once during the first week or so. Since the ratios are fairly close and you have to go through the gears in sequence there is no way to go from high to low. ( even if you slap it from high to low, the tension on the hub only allows it to go to 2nduntil your cadence catches up and then it will slip into low ) That being said, while spinning along a modest downgrade, preparing to make a turn onto a steep upgrade ( forgetting momentarily what I was doing ) I slipped the hub into 2nd from high. The bike slowes rapidly, you look like a cartoon and everyone including yourself gets a bit of a chuckle. I did this at a much faster speed than I think you would ever do on an upright loop frame.....so no worries....only a few opportunites for comic relief.

For whatever it's worth, I think I remember reading somewhere before the hub came out that BD was the primary reason the hub went into production. They were the only company willing to pre-order a minimum run for production. I preordered mine from them last year. I assume I got lucky as I haven't had any of the neutral issues that have plagued others who bought when I did.

I know it's not a loop, but here's mine.

$110 for the whole kit sounds great. Never mind about buying that bikesdirect bike. I gotta get one. Not soon, but eventually.