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Which Bike Had These Carlton Lugs?

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Which Bike Had These Carlton Lugs?

Old 12-12-10, 01:11 PM
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Which Bike Had These Carlton Lugs?

I have been looking at lug patterns, and am intrigued by this Carlton set:


[image from www.carltoncycles.me.uk ]

They are described as lugwork for the Professional model, but I can't seem to find any images of the actual bikes sporting these. Any leads would be appreciated!

Last edited by Veloria; 12-12-10 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 12-12-10, 03:16 PM
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Very interesting. The fanciest lugs on a Carlton I'm aware of are those on the Jewel, which are quite different from those, and more elaborate. I have never seen a bike with lugs like those.
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Old 12-12-10, 03:44 PM
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beautiful luggs

there is a extra something on your link https://www.carltoncycles.me.uk
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Old 12-13-10, 07:15 AM
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Woah, cool!

Those are really old. The fish-tail cut, I think, is a 1930's thing. The studs for the seat stays, on the side of the seat cluster, are 30's or earlier (see FTWelder's Raleigh Golden Arrow).
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Old 12-13-10, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by rhm
Woah, cool!

Those are really old. The fish-tail cut, I think, is a 1930's thing. The studs for the seat stays, on the side of the seat cluster, are 30's or earlier (see FTWelder's Raleigh Golden Arrow).
Interesting; I thought they were 1950s or so. Well, I guess that makes my chances of finding a picture of an actual bicycle with these very slim!
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Old 12-13-10, 01:32 PM
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Well, I guess I should state my reasoning...

Here's a picture of the seat cluster on FTWelder's Golden Arrow from this thread:

And here's the same fish-tail lug cutout on an Armstrong club bike from the late 30's, from this thread:


In my notebook I have drawings I made of somewhat similar lugs, though without the lacy cutouts, which I labeled "1938 Claud Butler" without noting where I saw them.

Your chances of finding a picture of an actual bicycle with those lugs will improve considerably if you're looking in the right decade! And I'm still thinking 30's. Production of these things stopped during WWII, so when bicycle production started up immediately after the war, they were using older lugs... so you may find them on a bike from '45-'47 or so. After that, I think these lugs would have seemed very old fashioned.

But, I should add, I'm picking this stuff up as I go, may be all wrong, and would gladly be corrected.
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Old 12-13-10, 03:37 PM
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The reason I said 1950s, is the information on this page. If I understand correctly, then the lugs are from a 1953 catalog, and are referred to as the Professional model. But that still hasn't helped me, as far as finding images goes. I have seen similar "lacy" lugs at a local framebuilder's workshop, but they weren't Carlton and were, I believe, from the 1970s. Otherwise, this style seems very unique to me.
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Old 12-13-10, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Veloria
The reason I said 1950s, is the information on this page. If I understand correctly, then the lugs are from a 1953 catalog, and are referred to as the Professional model. But that still hasn't helped me, as far as finding images goes. I have seen similar "lacy" lugs at a local framebuilder's workshop, but they weren't Carlton and were, I believe, from the 1970s. Otherwise, this style seems very unique to me.
I was just going to say that - according to the site, the lugs are early 50's. They are unusual - kind of like decorative tinwork. (Though I believe the pics are from the '51 and/or '52 catalog(s) rather than '53.)
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Old 12-13-10, 06:02 PM
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Those look just like the lugs on this old straight guage 531 Carlton mixte that I picked out of a dumpster a while back. Paint's shot but the chrome on the lugs is really nice. Don't know what I'm saving it for, really.
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Old 12-13-10, 06:02 PM
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Just kidding.
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Old 12-13-10, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sailorbenjamin
Just kidding.
I don't think I'm violating BF guidelines if I note that you are a genuinely horrible person.

I'd be interested in seeing decorative lugs from the '70s. I think a lot of things like that escaped my notice at the time because it looked "old fashioned" to me, and thus I dismissed it.
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Old 12-13-10, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sailorbenjamin
Just kidding.
Enjoy braking girls' hearts, do you!
GRRRR
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Old 12-14-10, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Veloria
Enjoy braking girls' hearts, do you!
GRRRR
Sailors are famous for that, aren't they?


Being a shade more serious, now... you won't be the first person among us to find something in a 50+ year old product brochure and say "I want that!" But you must realize that that is a classic Holy Grail search. Just because you saw it in a catalog doesn't mean it ever existed. Carlton built frames, presumably in-house. They also filed lugs in-house, but also used lugs they purchased from suppliers. But I really doubt they printed their marketing materials in-house; they probably hired someone to do that. Said someone used photos and drawings supplied by Carlton, no doubt, but may also have used any other pictures they found. The idea behind promotional literature is to drum up interest and sales. So even if the lacy lugs were in a 1953 brochure, it doesn't mean the lugs themselves existed at that time.

I know, I know, realism is not welcome on this forum. No worries. May I remind you that after I found my orange Norman in the trash, I got a 1950 Norman brochure on ebay for a few bucks... which led to a certain thread you may have seen once.
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Old 12-14-10, 08:16 AM
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It's okay if that Professional model doesn't exist, as I'd settle for an International from the 50s:



Va-va-va-voom!

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Old 12-14-10, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
Daddy like!
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Old 12-14-10, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Veloria
The reason I said 1950s, is the information on this page. If I understand correctly, then the lugs are from a 1953 catalog, and are referred to as the Professional model. But that still hasn't helped me, as far as finding images goes. I have seen similar "lacy" lugs at a local framebuilder's workshop, but they weren't Carlton and were, I believe, from the 1970s. Otherwise, this style seems very unique to me.
Before computers took over catalogue design, it was not uncommon for catalogues to be designed long before the catalogue was made public. The initial design would be needed by February, with all specs in place by March, the final illustrations or photos would need to be done by mid May, so that it could go to the printer in June, the binder in July and in the mail to dealers in August for September release. This often meant that if you didn't have at least a demo built by early April, you got an artist to draw one. The lugs in the OP are a drawing not a photograph. They may never have made it to the metal stage, or a couple of demo sets may have been made up later on and deemed too expensive to actually use in a production model.
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Old 12-14-10, 09:01 AM
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It is interesting, though, that the lugs in the the first drawing make extensive use of round holes, which would be easy to mass-produce, like the later capella design. Compare:
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Old 12-14-10, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by rhm
It is interesting, though, that the lugs in the the first drawing make extensive use of round holes, which would be easy to mass-produce, like the later capella design. Compare:
I agree. They're kind of non-fancy lugs made to look fancy - kind of like an optical illusion.
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Old 12-14-10, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
It's okay if that Professional model doesn't exist, as I'd settle for an International from the 50s:



Va-va-va-voom!

Neal
It's a beautiful bike, but the Jewel is really the over-the-top masterpiece, IMO. Someone post a photo of one - I'm lousy at that.
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Old 12-14-10, 10:04 AM
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Actually, the Jewel and International were in pretty close company:

https://www.hetchins.org/jewel-01.htm

And some folks think the 70's Internationals have "fancy" Nervex Pros.
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Old 12-14-10, 06:47 PM
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Sorry. I was feeling little fey last night.
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Old 12-15-10, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Wogsterca
... The lugs in the OP are a drawing not a photograph. They may never have made it to the metal stage, or a couple of demo sets may have been made up later on and deemed too expensive to actually use in a production model.
That is what I am afraid of : (

Originally Posted by rhm
It is interesting, though, that the lugs in the the first drawing make extensive use of round holes, which would be easy to mass-produce, like the later capella design.
I agree, but don't consider that a "bad" thing. Fancy need not mean complicated to produce, it is about the visual effect.
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Old 12-15-10, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
It's okay if that Professional model doesn't exist, as I'd settle for an International from the 50s...

Va-va-va-voom!
Not bad : )
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Old 12-15-10, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Veloria
I agree, but don't consider that a "bad" thing. Fancy need not mean complicated to produce, it is about the visual effect.
I agree completely. A lot of the early 50's English lugwork is over-the-top fancy, one might say gaudy or ostentatious. The 'lacy' design is really quite restrained. It's a design one can memorize; that's always a good thing. I mean, without peeking, can you remember the lugs Neal posted, just a little up the screen? I can't.
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Old 12-15-10, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rhm
...A lot of the early 50's English lugwork is over-the-top fancy, one might say gaudy or ostentatious...
I have been closely studying lug patterns for over a year now in an attempt to understand why I like some and not others. The conclusion I am coming to, is that it is not so much a matter of being subdued vs over the top (I like Nervex lugs, but don't believe I could call them "subdued"...), as it is a matter of harmonising with the line of the frame itself. I think that some of the Hetchins lugs - particularly those long, Celtic-inspired designs - distract from the lines of the frame, which for me is unappealing. And when they are painted a contrasting colour, or are chromed, this is more accentuated still.
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