Which Bike Had These Carlton Lugs?
12-12-10, 01:11 PM
#1
Lug Princess
Thread Starter
Which Bike Had These Carlton Lugs?
I have been looking at lug patterns, and am intrigued by this Carlton set:
[image from www.carltoncycles.me.uk ]
They are described as lugwork for the Professional model, but I can't seem to find any images of the actual bikes sporting these. Any leads would be appreciated!
[image from www.carltoncycles.me.uk ]
They are described as lugwork for the Professional model, but I can't seem to find any images of the actual bikes sporting these. Any leads would be appreciated!
Last edited by Veloria; 12-12-10 at 04:41 PM.
12-12-10, 03:16 PM
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,045
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
Very interesting. The fanciest lugs on a Carlton I'm aware of are those on the Jewel, which are quite different from those, and more elaborate. I have never seen a bike with lugs like those.
12-12-10, 03:44 PM
#3
Bianchi Goddess
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Shady Pines Retirement Fort Wayne, In
Posts: 28,111
Bikes: Too many to list here check my signature.
Liked 3,249 Times
in
1,641 Posts
__________________
“One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
Sugar "Kane" Kowalczyk
“One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
Sugar "Kane" Kowalczyk
12-13-10, 07:15 AM
#4
multimodal commuter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Posts: 19,809
Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
Liked 575 Times
in
340 Posts
Woah, cool!
Those are really old. The fish-tail cut, I think, is a 1930's thing. The studs for the seat stays, on the side of the seat cluster, are 30's or earlier (see FTWelder's Raleigh Golden Arrow).
Those are really old. The fish-tail cut, I think, is a 1930's thing. The studs for the seat stays, on the side of the seat cluster, are 30's or earlier (see FTWelder's Raleigh Golden Arrow).
12-13-10, 12:43 PM
#5
Lug Princess
Thread Starter
Interesting; I thought they were 1950s or so. Well, I guess that makes my chances of finding a picture of an actual bicycle with these very slim!
12-13-10, 01:32 PM
#6
multimodal commuter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Posts: 19,809
Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
Liked 575 Times
in
340 Posts
Well, I guess I should state my reasoning...
Here's a picture of the seat cluster on FTWelder's Golden Arrow from this thread:
And here's the same fish-tail lug cutout on an Armstrong club bike from the late 30's, from this thread:
In my notebook I have drawings I made of somewhat similar lugs, though without the lacy cutouts, which I labeled "1938 Claud Butler" without noting where I saw them.
Your chances of finding a picture of an actual bicycle with those lugs will improve considerably if you're looking in the right decade! And I'm still thinking 30's. Production of these things stopped during WWII, so when bicycle production started up immediately after the war, they were using older lugs... so you may find them on a bike from '45-'47 or so. After that, I think these lugs would have seemed very old fashioned.
But, I should add, I'm picking this stuff up as I go, may be all wrong, and would gladly be corrected.
Here's a picture of the seat cluster on FTWelder's Golden Arrow from this thread:
And here's the same fish-tail lug cutout on an Armstrong club bike from the late 30's, from this thread:
In my notebook I have drawings I made of somewhat similar lugs, though without the lacy cutouts, which I labeled "1938 Claud Butler" without noting where I saw them.
Your chances of finding a picture of an actual bicycle with those lugs will improve considerably if you're looking in the right decade! And I'm still thinking 30's. Production of these things stopped during WWII, so when bicycle production started up immediately after the war, they were using older lugs... so you may find them on a bike from '45-'47 or so. After that, I think these lugs would have seemed very old fashioned.
But, I should add, I'm picking this stuff up as I go, may be all wrong, and would gladly be corrected.
12-13-10, 03:37 PM
#7
Lug Princess
Thread Starter
The reason I said 1950s, is the information on this page. If I understand correctly, then the lugs are from a 1953 catalog, and are referred to as the Professional model. But that still hasn't helped me, as far as finding images goes. I have seen similar "lacy" lugs at a local framebuilder's workshop, but they weren't Carlton and were, I believe, from the 1970s. Otherwise, this style seems very unique to me.
12-13-10, 03:48 PM
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,045
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
The reason I said 1950s, is the information on this page. If I understand correctly, then the lugs are from a 1953 catalog, and are referred to as the Professional model. But that still hasn't helped me, as far as finding images goes. I have seen similar "lacy" lugs at a local framebuilder's workshop, but they weren't Carlton and were, I believe, from the 1970s. Otherwise, this style seems very unique to me.
12-13-10, 06:02 PM
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Rhode Island (an obscure suburb of Connecticut)
Posts: 5,630
Bikes: one of each
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
14 Posts
Those look just like the lugs on this old straight guage 531 Carlton mixte that I picked out of a dumpster a while back. Paint's shot but the chrome on the lugs is really nice. Don't know what I'm saving it for, really.
12-13-10, 06:11 PM
#11
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,743
Liked 3,941 Times
in
2,688 Posts
I don't think I'm violating BF guidelines if I note that you are a genuinely horrible person.
I'd be interested in seeing decorative lugs from the '70s. I think a lot of things like that escaped my notice at the time because it looked "old fashioned" to me, and thus I dismissed it.
I'd be interested in seeing decorative lugs from the '70s. I think a lot of things like that escaped my notice at the time because it looked "old fashioned" to me, and thus I dismissed it.
12-14-10, 07:37 AM
#13
multimodal commuter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Posts: 19,809
Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
Liked 575 Times
in
340 Posts
Sailors are famous for that, aren't they?Being a shade more serious, now... you won't be the first person among us to find something in a 50+ year old product brochure and say "I want that!" But you must realize that that is a classic Holy Grail search. Just because you saw it in a catalog doesn't mean it ever existed. Carlton built frames, presumably in-house. They also filed lugs in-house, but also used lugs they purchased from suppliers. But I really doubt they printed their marketing materials in-house; they probably hired someone to do that. Said someone used photos and drawings supplied by Carlton, no doubt, but may also have used any other pictures they found. The idea behind promotional literature is to drum up interest and sales. So even if the lacy lugs were in a 1953 brochure, it doesn't mean the lugs themselves existed at that time.
I know, I know, realism is not welcome on this forum. No worries. May I remind you that after I found my orange Norman in the trash, I got a 1950 Norman brochure on ebay for a few bucks... which led to a certain thread you may have seen once.
12-14-10, 08:16 AM
#14
Senior Member
It's okay if that Professional model doesn't exist, as I'd settle for an International from the 50s:
Va-va-va-voom!
Neal
Va-va-va-voom!
Neal
12-14-10, 08:45 AM
#15
Senior Member
__________________
Bikes on Flickr
I prefer email to private messages. You can contact me at justinhughes@me.com
Bikes on Flickr
I prefer email to private messages. You can contact me at justinhughes@me.com
12-14-10, 08:52 AM
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Toronto (again) Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6,931
Bikes: Old Bike: 1975 Raleigh Delta, New Bike: 2004 Norco Bushpilot
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
The reason I said 1950s, is the information on this page. If I understand correctly, then the lugs are from a 1953 catalog, and are referred to as the Professional model. But that still hasn't helped me, as far as finding images goes. I have seen similar "lacy" lugs at a local framebuilder's workshop, but they weren't Carlton and were, I believe, from the 1970s. Otherwise, this style seems very unique to me.
12-14-10, 09:01 AM
#17
multimodal commuter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Posts: 19,809
Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
Liked 575 Times
in
340 Posts
It is interesting, though, that the lugs in the the first drawing make extensive use of round holes, which would be easy to mass-produce, like the later capella design. Compare:
12-14-10, 09:58 AM
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,045
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
12-14-10, 09:59 AM
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,045
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
12-14-10, 10:04 AM
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,045
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
Actually, the Jewel and International were in pretty close company:
https://www.hetchins.org/jewel-01.htm
And some folks think the 70's Internationals have "fancy" Nervex Pros.
https://www.hetchins.org/jewel-01.htm
And some folks think the 70's Internationals have "fancy" Nervex Pros.
12-15-10, 03:12 PM
#22
Lug Princess
Thread Starter
I agree, but don't consider that a "bad" thing. Fancy need not mean complicated to produce, it is about the visual effect.
12-15-10, 03:14 PM
#23
Lug Princess
Thread Starter
12-15-10, 04:45 PM
#24
multimodal commuter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Posts: 19,809
Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
Liked 575 Times
in
340 Posts
I agree completely. A lot of the early 50's English lugwork is over-the-top fancy, one might say gaudy or ostentatious. The 'lacy' design is really quite restrained. It's a design one can memorize; that's always a good thing. I mean, without peeking, can you remember the lugs Neal posted, just a little up the screen? I can't.
12-15-10, 05:25 PM
#25
Lug Princess
Thread Starter
I have been closely studying lug patterns for over a year now in an attempt to understand why I like some and not others. The conclusion I am coming to, is that it is not so much a matter of being subdued vs over the top (I like Nervex lugs, but don't believe I could call them "subdued"...), as it is a matter of harmonising with the line of the frame itself. I think that some of the Hetchins lugs - particularly those long, Celtic-inspired designs - distract from the lines of the frame, which for me is unappealing. And when they are painted a contrasting colour, or are chromed, this is more accentuated still.
