Yellow Jersey has some stuff.

Manufacturers are always out to sell you a better mousetrap. If you're new/small, innovation is key. When you're the market leader, keeping your monopoly by dictating terms and reducing costs motivates you. Blame Shimano if you like, for the sq. taper's demise. It costs a lot more to manufacture a cup/spindle BB than today's sealed cartridge throw away. If you have a CNC machine, and a hydraulic press, you're in the BB and hub and headset business. Outsource cheap cartridge bearings, no precision grinding of hardened and tempered steels. Cheap plastic and aluminum cups instead of tempered steel. You get the picture. The end users' needs aren't necessarily the same as the manufacturers' goals.
IMHO, the outboard bearing BBs are a good step in progress. They are superior. Once the cost matches or drops below sq. taper cartridge BBs, and markets demand externals, sq. taper production will fade away quickly. Only 1 or 2 Chinese companies will continue aftermarket replacements for repair shops.

Agreed, and I hope they never phase out nipples for that same reason.

-Collin-

Last summer I was searching for parts to build my Simplon 4 Star. I was pretty sure that both my Sugino BB's that I had on hand were too scoured in the cups. (I ended using two to make one BB anyway.) So, my LBS guy and I trawled through the DiaCompe catalog. And barring the fact that I may have been having a senior's moment, I swear that I saw NEW DiaCompe cup and ball BB's — and there was a selection of spindle sizes. Now ... uh huh ... this is Japan, and it was a Japanese catalog. But it means that they DO exist. Not only that, but they should be perfect for Sugino cranks — hell — it's the same family! Yes, DiaCompe does not have bling, but IMHO it is good stuff and comes at a very reasonable price — eg: the Simplon is getting DiaCompe BR-101 brakes, which are gorgeous, well-made, a reasonable weight and very affordable.

Lenton58,
You're lucky (or cursed) to be in the location you're in.
Access to so much JDM (Japanese Domestic Market) goodies.

I find short spindles in cheap kid's MTBs, the kind with 6 speeds in the back and one in the front. Not the highest quality stuff but the price is right.

holy cr@p.

https://www.amazon.com/Pyramid-Bottom...346291&sr=1-51

It must be a total turd. From the price and the picture, i suspect it's made out of some really soft steel, and the worst bearings. Still, it's awesome that someone is making this relic, isn't it?

-rob

I'm sure the BB is just fine -Pyramid makes OK stuff. Probably better than what a lot of pre-80's bikes came with as the technology to make good steel is much better/cheaper these days. China is starting out with pretty much all new technology when they build plants unlike the rest of the world who's factories are old and trying to catch up by upgrading their facilities. I wouldn't discount something as soft as a turd cheap out of hand. It could be -or it could be perfectly serviceable. It's just a BB after all. Not the main bearing of a 30k RPM turbine.

I'd ditch the caged bearings and put in more loose balls than the cage holds and it would probably last for a long time in most bikes. There a billion OPC bikes out there with low-tech bearings and most all of them outlast the bikes. They might not be the smoothest in the world but if they are maintained fairly regularly they would do just fine in a commuter or pleasure bike. Probably not for the track or the Tour de France though

For hubs they have, Shimano advertised a couple of years ago, they were returning their hubs to loose bearing balls, not sure if those are in retainers or not. I think the whole cartridge thing is racing technology, with a BB you pull out the cartridge and stuff another one in. Headsets, if kept properly adjusted should last as long as the frame, they don't actually move that much, the press fit cartridge in that case works as well as anything else. For hubs the cartridges really didn't do much good, it's easier for a team to just swap the wheels for another set and get a junior mechanic to rebuild them later, if they even bother.

One thing though, a traditional BB if it's repacked with new bearings every 1000 miles or so and kept properly adjusted, should also last pretty much as long as the frame, on a new frame, I would just use the cartridge type. On an old BB, I would try rebuilding it, before replacing it.

I'd like to see someone other then Phil Wood make a BB in Raleigh thread, no matter what kind, man those things are pricey....

Your local bike co-op should have them by the dozens if not hundreds

No offense, but this is another reason cartridges win out. Who wants to pop their cranks and rebuild a BB every 1000 miles?

If i ever do an order thru amazon, i'll drop the $3.50 and get one, just out of curiosity. I hear what you're saying about how, in theory, that could be a decent BB set, but the stench of jenkiness was emanating from my monitor. It is my completely unsupported theory--a hunch--that the steel used in those cups will pit and deform in short order. I'm not sure if upgrading from caged bearings to more bearings would be worth it with this type of thing...

=rob

No retainers in any recent shimano hub I've ever seen. I like the shimano set up quite a bit. I think the preference for loose balls in hubs is to keep drag to a minimum; this really counts in the wheels, b/c they rotate the entire time the bike is moving. The BB only moves for the majority of applications when the rider is applying torque, so drag isn't nearly as much of an issue there. Headsets aren't adversely effected by the drag caused by cartridge bearings. The wheels, though, are best serving the rider when they roll as freely as possible.

-rob

The rule of thumb with most people I know who wrench on bikes is unless it is Campy, ditch the bearing retainer and go more loose balls. The fewer balls the more stress they put into the races in fewer places. It's just PSI and math. More balls spreads the force out more equally over the races.

agreed, but if i didn't have any new balls of the appropriate size just hanging around, i'm not about to go buy some extra loose balls to "upgrade" a $3.50 pyramid-brand loose-ball BB... Although, you get a gross of pyramid-brand bearings for $5, so it might be worthwhile anyway...

WNG:I guess that most ex-pats will say that exile is a mixed bag. I got here as an economic refugee from Canada's great crash/disaster of '93-'94. Tens of thousands of us had to get out of the country to find work.

Yes, JDM stuff is a boon for the vintage maniac. I can get most bits on order within a week. (Some odd size Campy bearings took two months, but that is typically Italian, and they cost me about 4 times what I pay for Dura Ace bearings). Nitto, DiaCompe and Shimano alone can supply enough new components that are compatible with vintage machines as well as spare parts for vintage components. I can do a frame-up build with a minimal wait for parts. Shimano here in Japan will supply spare parts for components going back many years, and a catalog with all the part numbers is regularly reissued. My LBS may service mail-order for parts, but you may have to pay through IMO's.

The downside: you will never see an intoxicated post from me raving about how I have just pulled a Bridgestone pro-racer from a land fill or scored or a triple-butted Iwash*ta 3Rensho in a garage sale. That just never happens here — ever!

It IS a turd. I prefer to strip the cups out of used Wal-Mart bikes (and rehab them with fresh bearings) than use these. Both are about on the same level, but at least the Wal-Mart cups come with pre-polished raceways - in other words, raceways nicely worn in by the previous owner.

-Kurt

The Pyramid balls are cheap. I pretty much have ordered a gross of every size. I rebuild enough bikes that having bearings around is a necessity. Like you said, they are around $5/gross on Amazon. I save the little jars that pickled artichoke hearts come in and wash them out. They make GREAT bearing containers.

Even so, the bike shop nearly across the street will sell me loose balls for $.05-.06 each depending on the size -it's just easier to have them on hand than walking the block and a half to their store and waiting around while they get around to counting them out, especially when they are busy.

I think the loose balls are probably winning out, because the Shimano factory in China orders the balls by the barrel, they pay some guy CN¥ 4.50/hr to plunk however many bearings are needed to fill the race, and that's cheaper then a retainer. Racing teams don't care, they probably toss the wheels when they are worn out anyway as it's cheaper then fixing them.

I picked that number out of ether, I forget the exact recommended distance, for a BB rebuild.

Good Lord, fair enough...pics for you today. Sorry!

(actually it's been decals and tubular tires)

Bearings: that is if you really care about what you are doing ... two guidelines:

* Grade 25 bearings = a higher end standard that most of us here would desire and demand.

* Same production batch when possible (but who really knows?) — buy sets if you can be supplied as such — and this does not mean some LBS clerk dropping balls from some cauldron of mixed production into sealed baggies!

A 5 cent bearing is probably a Grade 300 bearing. A Grade 25 bearing will probably cost about 20 cents. OK — if you are a flipper and using hundreds of bearings a month ... well you just do want you wanna do.

A few months ago I rebuilt my wife's shopping monster that had been running dry for a year and sounding like a buck-saw on granite. I used some Dura Ace bearings I had sitting in my kit. Now it runs like silk on dragon snot. Go figure ... I guess the cones and races were harder than the stock balls. Anyway ... IMO even cheap hubs benefit from better grade bearings. I'll go further: I think that that we can considerably upgrade a cheaper hub or BB by installing top grade bearings with some good synthetic grease and proper preload. Moreover — I've done it — at least to my satisfaction.

Bearings are like many commodities — you often pay more to get more.

Back in the days, my friend ran a racing team in Vancouver according to his experience as a racer in Czechoslovakia. He called the team his squderia, and he ran it as a family. He was "Papa", and he even cooked for the boys. He was a sharp task master and made every team member pull all their bearings and their chains once a week and rebuild. No one complained. This was about discipline more than a mechanical necessity, despite all the miles the team was stacking up in a week.

BB overhaul is a very individual thing that depends on a host of factors — not the least of which pertains to the road conditions and the effectiveness of the lubricants and seal in the BB. With modern, synthetic greases you should be able to run many more times the distance you mentioned. Still, checking is a good policy until you get to know what your limitations are. As they say: YMMV. I for one don't sweat the fact that my bikes are running on cup and ball BB's.

This is super-amusing to me :-D

What do you think we are building here????

It's a freaking bi-cycle! not a 100,000RPM turbine engine. It's basically a sprocket on two sticks. What's the maximum RPM for a crank axle? 250? what kind of torsional load are we talking about? Next to zip. Laughable. Even the lowest grade of bearing will be "smooth as butter" if assembled correctly with a modicum of technical know-how.

The grade doesn't matter. The whole "use the same production batch" on low-tolerance cup & cone bearings is laughable IMHO. This is NOT rocket science...