Opinions on long cage rear derailleurs - vintage
04-14-11, 09:28 PM
#51
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I've found the shifters to be important. Simply changing to Simplex "retrofriction" shifter made a world of difference regardless of what chain, freewheel, or derailleur was involved.
04-15-11, 05:05 AM
#52
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It's not "long cage" but there are two mounting points for the pulley cage. One is for freewheels up to 24T cogs,and the other is for up to 28T cogs. In the picture above, the pulley cage is mounted in the 24T cog position.
BTW, there is a less expensive version of the same derailleur called the "Challenger." The only difference is that the sheet metal pieces on the parallelogram are aluminum rather than titanium.
BTW, there is a less expensive version of the same derailleur called the "Challenger." The only difference is that the sheet metal pieces on the parallelogram are aluminum rather than titanium.
What's this one called?
04-15-11, 05:18 AM
#53
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Look if you get a chance at a 1984 Shimano 600 6207. The upper pivot casting is made to angle the parallelogram forward, but NOT to move it up and down. This appears (I won't claim to know the mind of Shimano) to be a cosmetic imitation of SunTour without compromising their patent. The 6207, like the much older Nuovo Record, does lower the jockey wheel due to the offset cage (and a sprung upper pivot not found on the NR!), but this does not manage free length nearly as well as a true slant para or the dual para. Go back to Berto's old measurements of what made derailleurs shift well or poorly.
And the DuoPar pivot (upper) is not adjustable. It has a hard stop and stays there in operation when the cage is tensioned, unlike say, a Simplex Prestige or a modern Campy.
04-15-11, 06:35 AM
#54
What??? Only 2 wheels?
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Not sure how a Duopar is based on a slant parallelogram. Yes, the main parallelogram is angled forward from the vertical, and that's true of a lot of derailleurs including the SunTours and modern true slants. But it does not force the cage downward as it moves it inward, as does any modern Shimano or Campagnolo.
The Shimano Crane was one attempt to get vertical movement with the jockey pulley. It placed the pulley behind the pivot of the cage. When you shifted to a larger cog and the entire cage pivoted forward on the bottom and backwards on top, the jockey pulley would move down. This worked well when you were on the small chainring. But the same effect happened when you shifted to the large chainring, so that the distance between pulley and cog increased and the shifting got sloppier. So it was a good idea only if the size discrepancy between chainrings wasn't too great. At least that was my experience.
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04-15-11, 11:18 AM
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My first road bike was a 10-speed Atala Giro D'Italia which came with Simplex Prestige plastic derailleurs. I upgraded to a complete SunTour set of derailleurs and shifters and was very pleased with the improvements. I even got the backwards-shifting front derailleur, which worked like a champ.
It was the V-GT rear, the Compe-V front, and the chunky shifters with the white sleeves.
A couple of years later, at my first bike shop job, the boss was a huge SunTour fan and called Shimano's designs "faulty," so he passed his biases on to me.
It was the V-GT rear, the Compe-V front, and the chunky shifters with the white sleeves.
A couple of years later, at my first bike shop job, the boss was a huge SunTour fan and called Shimano's designs "faulty," so he passed his biases on to me.
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Syke
“No one in this world, so far as I know — and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me — has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.”
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04-16-11, 12:34 PM
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Simplex did the same thing with, for example, the SX410. The parallelogram is oriented horizontally, with the "upper" (stationary) plate positioned behind and below the upper pivot. It looks like a slant parallelogram model but when viewed from the back it obviously moves the pulley cage horizontally with no vertical movement. You have to wonder what they were thinking, considering that the Suntour patents had run out.
The Shimano Crane was one attempt to get vertical movement with the jockey pulley. It placed the pulley behind the pivot of the cage. When you shifted to a larger cog and the entire cage pivoted forward on the bottom and backwards on top, the jockey pulley would move down. This worked well when you were on the small chainring. But the same effect happened when you shifted to the large chainring, so that the distance between pulley and cog increased and the shifting got sloppier. So it was a good idea only if the size discrepancy between chainrings wasn't too great. At least that was my experience.
The Shimano Crane was one attempt to get vertical movement with the jockey pulley. It placed the pulley behind the pivot of the cage. When you shifted to a larger cog and the entire cage pivoted forward on the bottom and backwards on top, the jockey pulley would move down. This worked well when you were on the small chainring. But the same effect happened when you shifted to the large chainring, so that the distance between pulley and cog increased and the shifting got sloppier. So it was a good idea only if the size discrepancy between chainrings wasn't too great. At least that was my experience.
