JunkYardBike

I'd like to add, I really don't care what anyone rides. Ride what you like. I'm not retro-snob. I don't think steel is better for anyone other than me. I'm simply responding to the claim, as others in the thread have, that carbon frames perform better than steel frames.

Darth_Firebolt

FWIW, the weak point on most carbon frames is the weight weenie wheels equipped from the factory. one of the bikes at the shop i work at has a rider limit of 180 pounds just for this reason.

jan nikolajsen 

I like this. Carry on, lads!

leftthread

I think reductio ad absurdum was where Chico and Groucho are playing cards and Chico says, "Cut the deck."

Harpo pulls out an axe and WHAM!

bigbossman 

You made me laugh out loud with that one. I grew up in Southern California, and during the summer Universal Studios would host film festivals in their outdoor amphitheater. Marx Brothers marathons were a perennial favorite.

Under a warm SoCal starlight sky with friends and girlfriends, laughing at the Marx Brother's antics all night long. Good Times.

fiataccompli

Interesting post & discussion. FWIW, I built up a (new-old-stock) '07 Orbea Orca a couple months ago and decided to go as committedly modern (albeit, not brand new stuff, so the serious new fetishists would still disapprove) as I have been so with vintage, steel, cool older stuff and all that in the past. So, I built the Orca using a SRAM Red group and even used one of the flat top, uber-ergonomic CF bars. What can I say from my experience? Well, I can say that I can flip & find slightly used stuff and build a modern bike as similarly inexpensively as I can do a vintage bike if I put my mind to it. I did notice there were some new tools to bring into the build...nothing or no concept of which I wasn't familiar with from my years of wrenching around on cars. The bike itself was noticeably faster from the first test ride (no bar tape...still with cables to trim, etc...but did one my common loops). I found this disappointing in a way. I guess it was not faster in the true sense, it was quicker to accelerate and more efficient to transfer energy to the wheel...so, it reaches cruising speed more aptly than a heavier or less rigid bike I suppose. I'm a bit of a fan now of the Orbea and I don't find the design/aesthetics as obnoxious as I do many modern machines. At the moment, it's the bike I usually take on longer (70+ miles) rides, especially ones involving a lot of climbing (it's 53/39 with a 28 large cog in the rear). Here are some points of note from my own steel-to-CF experience:

1. It makes unpleasant noises at times...well, notchy noises....the SRAM combined with the hollow plastic-y sound of CF is what I blame
2. I believe it's actually much tougher than I give it credit for....but I constantly find myself being conscious of the material in terms of flying rocks, potential cracks, any odd sounds that might resonate through the frame, etc.
3. It's light (just a hair over 16lbs on my scale)...which is a cool novelty for certain
3.5. The ITM K-wing (I think that's what it is) bar I used has got to be one of the most comfortable bars I've ever used.
4. It's a very nice ride all around. I have not regrets on the decision, though I have lost not a grain of appreciation for the classic steel bikes I love in the process
5. I really wonder if a bike like mine will ever end up 30-40 years later being rebuilt, loved, appreciated and actually RIDDEN like the bikes we usually talk about here.
6. Even though I do usually reach for the Orbea when I know I'm going to be doing some sustained 9-10% climbing, I do not feel like I necessarily *need* to do so and I'll be curious how often I reach for the Orbea when the novelty is not so fresh. Hmmmmm...

And, for the record, I also have a Merlin & it's a bit more C/V fitted with Campy Record, classic bend bars, etc. and a Colnago CT-1 that's Ti/CF (but may need some CF repair...not sure...thus some of my hesitation about CF, but I digress)

spock

Frame flexibility such as in most steel bikes can have some advantages as well.

When you are pedaling with high load, the frame flexes a bit, and at the same time it responds to the riders body and everything that happens with all the muscles, ligaments and such. Flexibility in a frame directly responds to better align all the parts necessary to apply the force and therefore partially relieve them from stress that could cause injury from repetitive usage. Stiff frames do not have this option. Everything is on a rider and it doesn't respond to riders body except for a bit more speed that results from bikes physical unresponsiveness. It's basically force responsive by being unresponsive or stiff.

Because of the flexibility, steel frames offer that extra forgiveness for the rider and form that connectivity with a bike that isn't imaginary.

It's heavier and slightly slower, but hey, at least it has some goodies that don't come with other stuff.

trekKiller

I'm down with high end steel outfitted with modern lightweight components. I can still burn many a carbon roadie and call me vain but I'm doin it with hella more style than dude-bro who picked up a trek at the local trek store. I sell new Giants and Felts and know how nice they can be, and a great value too especially when you compare it to outfitting an old bike with modern gear, but don't we all here have an affinity for style? Leave the hardcore techy arguing to 41, this stuff is a snooze fest imo.

Granted my thing for fast roadies are hopped up tange #1 Ironmans, so it's a little different league than something like, say, my Motobecane Jubile Sport with Vitus 888. The Moby does feel slower, but then I could still hang with my friend well enough to ride and they were on carbon and new high end steel. If you wanna go faster just ride a fast bike, old or new. And for God sake rock the 10 speed out back with some lightweight wheels!

Homebrew01

I wonder if we could test if stiffness affects speed. Perhaps the following:

Put "flexible" Bike A on a trainer with PowerTap wheel.
Put right pedal at 2:00 position
Apply load to right pedal from 2:00 to 6:00
Record watts

repeat for "stiff" bike B, using same components, set to the same gear

rccardr 

Huh.

What I'm going to do tomorrow is take a demo Madone out on my 20 mile training loop and see if my times are any better than on my Merckx.
If they are significantly better, I'm getting a Project One 6.5 for my 60th.

fiataccompli

I test rode my Orbea on the 17 mile "time trial" loop I do during lunch @ work. It was faster......but no, it was faster with a bit less effort in being so. Clearly taking out all the layeral flex induced losses equates to more efficient transfer of power to the wheel. The overall effect....in other words is it really faster or whatever I dont know.

One other note of comparison I got from a friend with whom I was comparing my '80s Grandis with the cf Orbea; the difference is "craftsmanship vs technology" That's not to say there's no craftsmanship in the construction of a cf bike but the cf is modern in every sense and driven by technology whereas the bikes we traditionally love are built out of generations of honed craftsmanship

Mike Mills

DARN! I said I wouldn't post in this thread.

There is absolutely ZERO doubt in my mind that a modern, graphite composite frame driven by a 20 or 30 speed transmission will be faster than a steel framed bike with its 10 or 12 speed transmission. All things being equal, I would bet the transmission changes are a bigger factor than the frame. The ability to fine tune your energy output to the terrain and the quick, positive, click-shifting without removing your hands from the bars or breaking your concentration are primary reasons for this.

seypat

Nobody seems to be talking about this! Put an old 5 or 6 speed on the back of the CF and see how much slower it becomes. When the rider can't find tune his/her cadence let's see if that frame is still as good at climbing.

It might be. But still the debate is modern CF with modern drivetrains vs CV steel with old or new drivetrains. Send the CF out with an old 5 speed Regina or Cyclo and a NR RD and see how it does.

mixtemaniac

Maybe we have different definitions of reasonable/expensive.

bikingshearer 

Thank goodness this thread is coming back from the abyss. It was starting to sound like one of those endless "I don't like helmet" threads in A&S.

Or worse yet, a "John Forester/Grant Peterson is God/an idiot" threads that keep popping up like crabgrass.

bikingshearer 

Sean Kelly could have won riding a tissue-paper frame or a pig-iron frame. Having said that, others have said similar things; Greg Lemond, for example.

Since I will be slow regardless of what I ride, and I like the look of classic lugged steel, that is what I will ride Slowly. As for tghe rest of you, ride what you like. Just wave and say "hi" as you blow past me. Thanks.

trekKiller

I said it first man.

noglider 

I get compliments on my McLean (1982 lugged) bike on the road, even from people who don't know bikes. It actually surprises me. I've grown up with it, so it's not pretty or ugly to me. It's just my bike.

Bikedued

I too have noticed the same thing. CF tri bikes are noisier on the work stand too. It's the super stiff frames and ESPECIALLY the wheels that make them noisy. CF amplifies every little noise, and those 3 spoke/disc HED and Zipp wheels sound faky and rumbly with 160+ psi tubulars.,,,,BD

Bikedued

Oh just as a side note, hehe. I rode my Allez to work the other day and put it on the scale. With clincher rims and a steel frame it weighed in at 23 pounds 14 ounces. My 24 year old coworker was within sight of the readout. He gave a puzzled comment.. "Hey? That's only a pound heavier than my 2011 Alllez?? I just turned and smiled. I know the 2011 is aluminum, but you get the picture. I'm pretty sure mine has a nicer ride and with a friction 600EX group in like new condition, performs just as well?,,,,BD

due ruote 

I was about 4th in line to pick up a Specialized Epic Carbon at a church rummage sale today. Went for $40. My size. Someone please tell me they're pieces of dung.

curbtender

...made in Dung Hau, near Taiwan

fiataccompli

don't worry, i'm sure you'll be able to buy that Epic soon on CL or Ebay for a large multiple of the $40 price tag at the rummage sale...

Bikedued

It depends on which Epic carbon we're talking about here? They recently dug up the name and started naming a full squish MTB "Epic". Either way it was a deal for $40.,,,,BD

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...ed=0CC4Q9QEwAg

due ruote 

No, this was a '90s road bike. I didn't look that closely but I believe it was 105 or 600 gear. Once it became clear it wasn't going to be mine I turned tail and tried to forget about it, rather unsuccessfully, as you can see.