I've been thinking of proper ways to ask this, but I have yet to come up with much. I'll just go ahead and ask it in an honest manner as I'm very curious to hear others' opinions.

My C&V tally is probably somewhere around 10-15 bikes I own or have owned. These range from your average clunker to a Paramount, Moto Le Champion, Pro-Miyata, etc. They've ranged in groupsets from Suntour V to Super Record and everything in between. While I've not kept all of them, I have ridden all of them extensively.

Now, for my questions: do you think some aspects of C&V have been over-hyped? I'll be honest in that I can appreciate a quality drivetrain over anything else, but as for double-butted, triple-butted, spine triple-butted, quad-butted, etc., is there that much of a difference? Honestly speaking, the difference in ride quality between all of my bikes I have NEVER attributed to tubing (aside from my CAAD9 being stiffer than any other bike I've been on).

Let's drill down a bit closer. Will a Paramount, being hand-made of 531DB tubing, really ride that much better than say, a Moto Grand Record (costing under half the price)? I know one is French, one is American, but that's just my point. Does a bike have to be hand-made in some mystical cage in the back of a Schwinn factory to be a top-notch ride?

Moving right along - let's touch on the Italian stuff. It costs two to three times more than a comparable Japanese bike and while I attribute that to quality, I also attribute it to them being more collectible. For some reason, Japanese bikes just don't grab the show and class of Italian bikes. Why is this? Is it because they're not as good, or that there are more of them available and easier to be had?

Suntour is constantly referred to as functionally superior to the Campy equivalent - so why does it cost much less? Of all of my C&V bikes, I think my favorite was my Pro-Miyata (which was even too small for me) because of the Superbe Pro drivetrain and lovely ride (which, honestly, all of my bikes have).

Really, I'm not trying to get into the Japanese vs. French vs. Italian debate. I'm really just wanting some opinions. Is it really just as simple as some bikes are just more collectible than others? Or am I missing somehting?

-Collin-

It's difficult to say. I have 4 steel bikes, three of which are variants of 531, (one is 531c, and two are 531db) the other being Columbus SLX.

As to how they ride, I think geometry has a big effect. One of my 531s rides the same as my 531c because the geometry is much the same, my Flying Scot feels a bit livelier, but that may be psychological! , and the geometry of the Columbus bike is much more race orientated so rides much differently. However, it also feels more "direct" which might be due to it being more torsion resisitant (I think)

I love Italian stuff because it looks so stylish, but the paint on my Cinelli is nowhere near as good as my British (or Scottish!) bikes.

I love Campag because of the history and the fact it has design flourishes that Shimano doesn't (a Campag rear mech is beautifully shaped), but my favourite ever mech was a Huret Duopar, which I wore out after 20 odd years. On my tourer I have Stronglight cranks, variations of which I have used for years and my wife has TA, which are just stunning.

I've used Suntour and liked it, I have Shimano on my hybrid and it works fine, but doesn't look that great (though Dura Ace does).

I think(like anything else) you should just collect what you like and ignore value.

I'll be following this thread with interest. Dunno myself.

At the local swapmeet there was an Italvega for sale in sad shape. The sew-ups were rotting on the wobbly rims, the front Campy derailleur was worn through. Most of the components other than the shift levers were a mix of Suntour & low end Shimano. The guy manning the booth told me proudly that they were selling the bike for $500.00 because it was an Italian bike with Full Campy and Sew-Up tires. Pointed out that it wasn't full Campy, or even a good percentage. Got a blank look. He had no clue what it meant. At the same swap meet was a nice Univega in rideable condition for $150.00

EXACTLY my point. I've seen similar stuff on Craigslist. It's funny - the same guy imported both those bikes.

A great example is a Univega Super Speciale vs. an Italvega Super Speciale. No, they're not the same bike, but they're both one form of Record-equipped. I picked my Univega up for $280. I see Super Speciale Italvegas on eBay for way over $1,000. I got lucky, but still.

Chewa: thanks for the comments. I think a lot of the differences I find are either related to geometry, or my psychological craziness in thinking that Columbus SLX MUST be better than other steels.

-Collin-

I'd like to preface this by saying that I don't have a lot of experience with French bikes...

I've noticed that a lot steel frames with the same build feel noticeably different, maybe not to everyone, but to me. What I think most of the ride/response differences come from are two different things:

- frame build qualities
- tubing thickness

When I say build qualities, I don't mean workmanship. I mean, the shapes and placement of the tubes. For instance: a steel frame with largish diameter chain stays and seat stays will often feel more solid. Pencil thin seat stays and tapering chain stays often feel more bouncy. Beefier forks with a more rounded profile tend to be more resistant to braking forces, and feel more resistant to cornering forces, but they also seem to transfer hard shocks more, too. The curvature and thickness of the blades makes a very noticeable difference to the way the bike feels. I'm of the mind that the fork easily accounts for as much as 50% of the bike's handling and ride characteristics, rake notwithstanding.

Another thing.. I think that the main differences in feel between tubesets, has to do with the thickness and type of butting. Though, I wonder if two framesets with identical geos, lugs, tubing shapes/thickness/butting; one out of Columbus SL and one out of some other alloy, would have the same 'snap'. Or, would the difference still exist in a noticeable amount, due to the difference in alloy.

Honest question? Sounds like a troll to me, but some of the best threads are trolls.
It's all good fun to me. I don't buy the hype, as in: I don't buy expensive bikes. but I love the hype.

I have three C&V bikes, an Eddy Merckx 7-11 Corsa w/ DA 7400, a Zunow Z-1 w/ Sugino 75 road, and a Bridgestone RB-1 with Sante. all three have very different ride qualities.

the Merckx is by far the stiffest, and feel like a serious racing machine. It's not exactly a comfy ride but of all my bikes it feels like the one that demands and gets the best athletic performance from me.

the Zunow is a more comfortable ride, with curved chainstays and monostay. the only complaint I have is that Sugino 75 road group, while super rare and bling, doesn't deliver quite as smooth shifting as I would like. however the super-stiff crankset gives the bike a sporty edge.

the RB-1 is simply the best of the bunch. It's sized perfectly to me, is comfortable to ride but still aggressive and nimble. the Sante group is smoother than Dura Ace, and the Biopace chainrings give it a reassuring ease while climbing. it's the one I would keep over all the others - not as aggro as the Merckx or exotic as the Zunow, and not at all as collectible as either one, but all-around the best in terms of pure ride satisfaction.

so yeah, different tubing and designs deliver different rides. in terms of collectability, i think it's very hard to determine precisely. for someone who knows the more obscure, boutique Japanese handmade bikes, my Zunow is very rare and has an even more rare groupset. it took over a year to compile the parts group and would be very tough to replicate. but neither the bike nor the group would be very impressive to someone who prefers Italian design or parts.

the Merckx is the opposite - it's a nearly flawless example of an iconic and popular bike. however I see similar models pop up on eBay with surprising regularity. sure they typically pull $1500+ but if you have the cash you could have a Merckx like mine with relative ease.

and then you have the RB-1. another one of those cult bikes, and deserving of the high reputation. but unless you're a Bridgestone fanatic, it's probably "just another Japanese production bike" to you. *shrug*

anyway, collectability is driven by what's popularity and rarity. a rare but unpopular bike will command a lower price than a popular but more common bike.

I feel my SLX bike is more responsive, and much stiffer, but it's also the smallest bike in my stable, and with the most aggressive geometry.

I assure you Collin isn't being a troll, we discuss this subject frequently.

I think that's it if you distill it down to its most basic. I suppose its pretty hard to pin down what makes something collectable but I do agree with what you said about geometry vs. construction materials....and bikes that ride well aren't necessarily collectable...or not collectable...In some cases bikes are more sought after because of who made 'em....other cases who rode 'em...other cases just because of their place in time and history.

I think my Team Miyata is my favorite (in terms of ride quality) of all my bikes. The components are a hodgepodge of middle of the road stuff but IMHO the frame is what really makes that bike great. I'm not sure if its the Splined and butted Cr-Mo tubing (although that certainly helps bring the weight down) or the Geometry or what but if you could copy that bike's ride and feel and make me a version that took wide tires and fenders I'd have my dream machine.

Supply and demand rules. Lots of Suntour stuff out there, so it is pretty cheap. Note the high end Suntour stuff is starting to creep up in price.

Same with bikes, there is almost an endless supply of Japanese vintage bikes out there. Of course, most of the brands had full product lines from low end junk to sweet high end stuff.

I really like the compatibility factor of the Japanese bikes, really easy to swap parts from bike to bike. Yes, I have a handful of french bikes and Italian bikes as well.

My favorite right now? My 1987 Schwinn Prologue, made in Japan by Panasonic, Tange Prestige frameset, currently sporting nine speed Dura Ace STI (Ultegra wheelset). Collectible? Probably. Functional? You bet.

And what did I take on my last vacation? My 1989 Univega Alpina Pro MTB, made in Taiwan, cost me all of $40. Collectible? Nope. Functional? You bet.

Good question.

I've had identical frames, one with Campy, one with Shimano. The Shimano was smoother of the two (both 8-sp Ergo/STI)

I've had direct competitor bikes by the same brand:
85 Cinelli Centurion Equipe vs. 85 Centurion Prestige.
Cinelli was a better frame, Prestige was a better bike. At the time, they cost about the same.

The Ironman line was a better bike, in my opinion, from '85 to '89, than most Italian bikes costing 1.5x to 2x as much.
That would be true, in my opinion, of many of the "like kind and quality" Japanese bikes of the era, all much cheaper and better overall bikes.

Still, I almost paid $450 for a Bottecchia the other day. By the time I'd parted it out, I'd have had the frame for $225, much more than I'd pay for an Ironman frame. I am not sure how many times I'd have to do that until I'd come to my senses. I think I'm about 2/3 of the way there. That last 1/3 is still infatuated by the ride of some Italian frames.

I've seen SLX-tubed Cilo's with Dura Ace go for $250, about the price of an Ironman.
Conversely, I've seen Paramounts that were half the bike of the Cilo go for twice as much.

I think the hype, aesthetics, scarcity, and the Sophia Loren effect still count.

almost any one part can be set up a number of ways, and the results will be different with each one. One person might think a duopar is perfectly awesome shifting a 6 sp freewheel with a bar end made by shimano, and another person might set it up on a 8 sp cassette shifted by a dt lever and to them it sucks.

In other words, not only is everyone application and setup different, so are there needs and experience. There are WAYYY too many variables to really get a right answer to much of this stuff. It will always be that way.

So the best thing you can do it just try parts and bikes and systems and see what doesnt and does work for you and for the most part, forget about everything else.

And disregard almost all general statements about brands.

Someone has to do it...

Collin, you aren't missing anything. You are just noticing that your value system is not consistent with some others - a mistake we all make when we assume there is a specific value to a collectible (by example, all of the "what is my super-duper worth?" threads).

We all appreciate a different combination of facets in a collectible. I like the hand-painted logos on my Legnano but for a century ride, the Bottecchia performs better. Why something rides better is a mysterious combination of everything; certainly a function of geometry, probably a function of tube quality, and also including tire quality and pressure. So who knows - I just enjoy what I like and get rid of the rest.

I'm sorry you feel this way. Apparently any thought/discussion-provoking thread is labeled as such these days.

I think I just forgot entirely what this thread was about.

Well, lots of great thoughts in this thread so far and that's what I was really looking forward to reading. A few take-aways from this are certainly that you can't exactly compare one bike against another. I mean, a simple stem/bar adjustment can make a bike ride entirely different than before. One person mention that changing the configuration of just one part can drastically change the ride, so that's a great point. As for Japanese vs. Italian vs. anything else, I guess I totally agree that it's supply and demand, as well as the legacy of these vintage parts. Come to think of it, I regularly see Superbe stuff sell for as much as Campy on eBay/CL. I guess saying that Campy is more expensive sometimes isn't fair. I paid more for my Superbe bike than I did my Campy bike, now that I think about it.

Anyway, at the end of the day I guess there are just too many variables to come up with a reasonable explanation and I knew that before asking this question. I did, however, seek the opinions of others and I look forward to more thoughts. Maybe with more insight, I can finally define a "grail bike" for myself and with any luck, maybe it will only cost me $50 I can hope, right?

Cheers,

-Collin-

I don't own anything super high end, but I have lots of 531 bikes of various configurations. I find that on the whole sport-touring geometry and relatively lightweight tubing serve me best in the combo of comfort for many hours in the saddle and agility/speed. Pure touring bikes don't work for me and bikes with racier geometry don't work for me in that they don't match the kind of riding I do. That's why early 70s road bikes make up such a large part of my herd--they have that sweetspot.

That said, yesterday I did a 45-mile-ish ride on my Fuji S12-S and was loving it the whole time. A frankenbuild with SunTour Superbe brakes, Shimano levers, Stronglight 99 crankset set up as a compact double, Shimano Crane mechs, Weinmann concave rims and Panaracer Rolly Polly tires, and a very worn Belt saddle. I have lighter bikes, and I have flashier bikes, but the Fuji never fails to please.

Neal

At last, someone has asked the right question. I have, on purpose, found, built and ridden hundreds of pretty decent old road bicycles, comparing each to all, and hoping to see which ones float to the top.

Needless to say, some did float to the top, when ride quality was the issue. But when user friendliness became the concern, the oldies are definitely not the goldies.

Though I have never been lucky enough to own, or even ride, a high end carbon fibre bike, fitted with top of the line components, I a willing to bet that the ride would be awesome, and I use that term literally. To that guess add an element of honest observation - nothing rides as nice as my 2000 Marinoni Squadra, or perhaps I should say, I like riding it more than any other bicycle in my fleet.


Collectible bikes have their own value and cannot be compared to newer technologies, in my humble, or not so humble, opinion. Though I never did get a chance to ride my Automoto, I loved the bike and its wonderfully vintage mechanical nature. But it might have been a betch on a hill, up or down:-(


By the way, what it a Troll?

Insight be damned!! Go for personal experience. AKA, ride as many as you can. Ride with other C&V'ers...try their bikes. Then go home and rearrange all your bike/wheel combinations and try em all with different wheels...then go mix up the drivetrains and try em that way....see what makes a difference and what doesn't.

The more I ride the more I learn what matters to me and what doesn't. For example, cranksets all feel the same to me. So I don't stress over brand loyalty....I just get what allows me the gear combos I want...or whatever looks the best Its all the same to me, so who cares! On the other hand, Tires do make a difference to me so I blow what some would consider absurd amounts of cash on rubber.

Nice vintage ride, right there. Alamo.

What we were talking about ?

The picture of Ms Loren is actually a good example of why Italian bicycles and components fetch so much more than their counterparts... they are exotic and beautiful and even though they may not function as well as some of their contemporaries that Italian effect comes into play.

I have never been so lucky to find out how Ms Loren rides.

Anyways...

If I put my new old Garlatti and my Ron Cooper side by side most people would be attracted to the Garlatti... she has an exotic look what with her being all chrome while the Cooper comes in a plain grey / silver wrapper but is all business and few frames have ever been made with such attention to detail.

The Cooper is sporting a mix of parts... Cyclone Mk2 derailleurs, Sugino Mighty crank, Zeus centre pulls, Campagnolo Victory levers... all of these are some of the nicest parts in their class and there is not a vintage Camapagnolo part that can exceed them from a performance standpoint. But the Campagnolo parts will always cost more and fetch more except for the Zeus bits which are also uber collectible.

The Cooper is a rocket that has the perfect blend of performance and ride quality... even with 700:20 tyres the bike is still silky smooth.

The Garlatti also has a mix of parts... Stronglight crank, Valentino front derailleur, and just installed a wide 14-30 Suntour Perfect and a Cyclone MK1 GT. A finer touring derailleur has never been made... and to this day few derailleurs can claim to be as light.

The Garlatti is a touring bike with very slack angles and feels like an old friend despite only being here for a few days.

And then we have those quirky French bikes... and if anyone knew how to make a beautiful riding bicycle it was Peugeot. Everyone should ride a UO8 for a while to give them some perspective on what a really comfortable bike feels like.

I have a UO8 and it handles a little quicker than the Garlatti but has a ride that is enviable... and one can pick one of these up for very little money.

Japanese bikes are probably the best value out there as you get a well made and well designed bicycle with quality parts that are easily interchangeable with most everything and nice performance can be gotten without running Superbe or Dura Ace.

My Japanese made Kuwaharas are exceptionally well made bicycles and their stock gear was excellent... I picked them up rather cheaply because no-one would give them a second look or appreciate how fine a bicycle these are.

I am a huge fan of Suntour components... they don't have the oooooh factor of higher end Shimano or Campagnolo but functionally... they are truly excellent and if we based value on how well things work, Suntour would sit very highly on the list..

Collectible... and rather functional.







Functional...







Collectible and as functional now as when they were new.





And a whole bunch of fun... but not worth very much at all.