When you're doing a 3X/3X lacing, you install the first set of spokes on one side (at least if you follow Sheldon), then you flip the wheel over and install the second set. Assuming you install the first spoke one flange hole [partial offset] over, then you lace it into the rim the same one spoke hole over.

Now if you're doing this 3X/2X, the first spoke in the second set (the 2X) will not lace into the first spoke hole (on the rim) over, but into the first hole "back". If you laced a 3X/1X, you'd count back another set [of two - one each side], and for radial you'd count back three sets.

I'm sure this is clear as mud. But it's pretty easy to demonstrate with a wheel in your hand.

Regarding the Balduzzi tip: Brandst's instructions include that technique. Something like, "leave three threads showing on each nipple, then go back around and hide all threads on each nipple". Worked great for me on my first build and I think it always will so long as your spoke lengths are correct.

That's a thought and they will be low-flange hubs too. Thanks.

Alloy nipples, not on your life. Yeah, Lee is where I'd be getting them so I'll ping him with my plans too and see what he says. Nice he'll order the Lasers if you want though.

Actually no, it makes sense....and besides, it wouldn't be the first time I've laced and unlaced, laced, and unlaced...

When I did my first crowsfoot wheels, thirty years ago , I thought I had invented the idea. It's not hard to do on a 36 spoke wheel. I would have to think for a while before I could do it on any other number. You need a number of spokes that's divisible by 6. You start by building the wheel as if it were radial, with six spokes per side. Might as well true and dish it at this point, but don't tension it up yet. Then you add a cross, which can be 2x 3x or 4x, over each radial spoke. True and tension and you're done.

Other things you can try are twisting the spokes for a "snowflake" look, which is easy enough but very difficult to tension correctly, so not recommended for a wheel that will get heavy loads. The front wheel on my folding bike has twisted spokes and that's fine after 9000 miles. The rear wheel on my touring bike was a bad candidate for this, it started popping spokes after 300 miles and I have only myself to blame. It's fine on a kids bike, of course. It's a good way to use existing spokes that are 4 or 5 mm too long.

Let me dig up some photos and get back to you on this.

photos would be most welcome...I'd love to see those twisted spokes.

Twisted Spoke:

Gerd Schraner author of 'The Art of Wheelbuilding' and a pro wheelbuilder for Deutsche Telekom and other teams didn't think
much for those patterns, too much stress on the spokes and not enough on the wheels. he did not find them to be strong at all.
Never built or ridden any so no comment from me.

Marty

Here is a wheel I built maybe four years ago. 20" rim, Sturmey Archer hub, and I used the spokes that came with the rim, which were too long. So I twisted them. Built up a POS Huffy frame into a little three speed that looked a lot like an MTB and my daughter rode the crap out of it until she outgrew it a month or two ago. She did quite a few 50+ mile rides on thing, accompanying me while I rode my orange Norman, all over the island. Plus countless trips to the library and cruising the neighborhood... this wheel has held up fine. But she's a peanut.



Now, here is a wheel I built about a year ago. It is also a 20" rim, it's on my new commuter bike. The bike came with a 24 spoke wheel. I won't commute without my dynamo lights, so as soon as I got the bike I rebuilt the front wheel. Unfortunately the only cheap dynamo hubs on ebay at the time had 32 holes. To lace a 24 spoke rim you really want a 24, 36, or 48 hole hub. To use the 32 I basically had to build the wheel with 16 spokes, then I planned to add four trailing spokes to one side and four leading spokes to the other side. But that didn't work, and I had to put all the extra spokes in as leading spokes. This makes for uneven spoke tension; the trailing spokes are under quite a bit more tension than the leading ones, since there are fewer of them. I'm not looking for compliments here, I know this is one ugly wheel. But it has stayed perfectly true through daily use adding up to 3700 miles or so.

There's one thing I've been curious about for many years, which is if one could use V-shaped spokes. Have to figure out the pattern and have someone like LKSpoke to bend them and thread both ends at the correct length. Why... I don't even know. I just thought it might be cool, so I've wanted to try it.

Great pictures ColonelJLloyd.

And some really cool builds there rhm. How did you calculate the spoke lengths on those -or did you just shoot from the hip?

On the former, well.... If you unbuild a wheel with a fairly small hub, and rebuild it with the same spokes and a somewhat larger hub, your spokes will be a little too long. The difference in desired spoke length is far less than the difference in the respective flange sizes; not enough to do one more cross, but too much to do nothing. I expected this; so I twisted them to take up the slack.

On the latter... I think I calculated the spoke length for a 16 spoke wheel with 1x, 2x, 3x,4x, and then got out my spoke collection to see what I had that was anywhere near any of those. Picked something, built the wheel up. Then I took my spoke collection again and looked to see what I could put in there to connect the rim to any of the remaining holes. This is what I ended up with!

This reminds me of another 20" wheel I built. I don't remember what the plan was, when I built this, I think I was planning an ultra-cheap three speed folding bike for commuter purposes. Note the blue reflective tape on the inner surface of the rim, which I salvaged from a junked BMX bike. I had unbuilt several BMX wheels to reuse the hubs, rims, etc. and when I needed spokes to build this one I did the calculations and looked in the spoke box and found I had some black spokes that were 3 mm too long and some stainless ones that were 3 mm too short. So I figured if I did all the leading spokes with the one and all the trailing spokes with the other, it would all come out right. This wheel ended up on a Raleigh Twenty that my son rides. Classic theft proof bike. Look closely you can see that some spokes are black and some are silver; it's more difficult to see the effects of the two different spoke lengths.

Wow, I thought I was the only one who jumps in and tries stuff. I like the idea of averaging out leading/lagging spokes. I'll have to keep that one in mind in case I ever need to do this.

I have a lot of spokes in my collection too. I never throw anything away. Even broken spokes are saved and made into "wheel/rim" hanging hooks since they really hold their shape when bent into a hook -much better than even coat-hanger wire.

No for rim brakes, yes for hub brakes. With a rim brake there is no torque on the hub at all. The stresses in the spokes due to rim braking are to increase the tension in the horizontal spokes leading backwards from the hub, and conversely reduce the tension in those spokes leading forward from the hub. If you didn't have a rear sprocket (or 5 or 6 or 11, etc) you could use radial spokes F and R.

3 leading 3 trailing on 36*, yields a trefoil pattern. I'd like to couple this with a 2L2T2X 40* rear which would give five points to the 'star.' This pattern uses the same spoke lengths as the same cross-patern laced conventionally. It's said to be just as strong but be a little more picky to true.

I built alot of those twisted patterns back in the day, I think we added 3mm to the length and we didnt have any riders who had more problems with the twist pattern than standard 3X.

That doesn't surprise me. The trick is putting the twist in the right place and I, evidently, got it wrong a couple of times. I think the trick is to make the twist closer to the hub than you'd think.