Fancy Wheel Lacing Patterns
 

So I'm doing some measuring for a spoke order for a set of tubulars i'm building. It occurred to me that I'd kinda like to try out some different lacing patterns for my wheels.

The front wheel I got already built from Tom Reingold, its radial spoked. So that's taken care of. I'm thinking about the rear wheel.

I know you shouldn't radial spoke the drive side, but that's about the only 'rule' i know of, and I think its not entirely accurate to even call it a rule.

I've thought about radial spoked NDS and 4 cross on the DS...and I've seen pictures of "crows foot" lacing that I thought was pretty cool...of course I don't know if that's kosher on a rear wheel.


Can you (the collective you) recommend me some cool ways to spoke the rear wheel?
Is it a bad idea to deviate from the usual for the rear wheel?


If you've got some alternative laced wheels to show off, please do!

if you're going to do a half radial job you should do the drive side actually, the wheel will be a lot more evenly tensioned then if you were to do it the other way.

A good one if you're after strength and good torque is 3 cross the drive side and 2 cross the non drive side.

here's an interesting article. They talk about the 2/3 cross lacing pattern you mentioned and a "half crows-foot" lacing pattern that works on 32h wheels, as well as half-radial.

http://spokeanwheel.110mb.com/lacingsr.htm

3x low flange, 4x high flange, the occasional radial laced front (have yet to try it myself). I guess I'm boring :)

Rather than fancy lacing my next deal is going to be lighter DB spokes. Presumably (and this is what I read mind you) lighter more flexible spokes provide for a more supple wheel. I've built with straight 2.0mm (Sapim Leader), 2.0/1.8/2.0 (Sapim Race)...but now I want to try a lighter spoke on the wheels for my Fuji Professional, Sapim Lasers which are 2.0/1.5/2.0. I'm anxious to give it a whirl.

But by all means OP, go crazy....all I know is I look at some of those fancy crows foot patters and such and holy moly, do I get a headache! :D

EDIT: That 2x/3x lacing looks like something interesting to pursue...anyone ever done it?

having just read the article above, the author has high praise for the half crows-foot lacing used on the rear wheel.

It could potentially require 4 different spoke lengths for the rear wheel.

Its a very interesting read. I never knew that lacing patterns had such an effect on wheel strength. The author claims that simple 3 and 4 cross lacing on a rear wheel provides only for a wheel with optimal torque transfer, it doesn't provide for a wheel with optimal lateral stiffness. Apparently using some amount of radial spokes confers lateral stiffness.

For strength? Tied and soldered.

(not that I've ever used one in my short time on the planet)

As cool as tying and soldering looks it doesn't technically add any increased strength, it has some benefits, say if you happen to blow a spoke, the spokes gonna stay putt.

Doing half radial will have very high lateral strength, but the wheel may not last very long compared to normal lacing.

I always wanted to try the half crows foot, but I think it kinda ends up looking messy in the end, as in you don't have a clean straight section for your valve. 3 leading/3 trailing looks kinda funky.

I'm interested in this topic and will bump it with pics.

36h, 3-cross variation:

http://www.minortriad.com/wheel.jpg

3-cross drive side; 2-cross non-drive side:

http://beergazelle.files.wordpress.c...ross2cross.jpg

Crow's foot:

http://www.rideyourbike.com/images/crowsfootclose.jpg

3-leading, 3-trailing:

http://www.rideyourbike.com/images/3...g3trailing.jpg

2-leading, 2-trailing:

http://www.rideyourbike.com/images/3...3trailing2.jpg

I've done the 3/2 rear wheel on a couple of builds. It's pretty simple to lace.

I found it to be easier than a cross/radial pattern. I think I did a 3X/radial - and started off lacing the radial side one spoke hole (actually 2 holes, but the next one for that side) offset :rolleyes: That didn't work well.

So how does the lacing differ, other than the fact that you cross one less spoke per on the NDS? Is there something special you have to do counting holes?

(Trying to envision it in my head.)

All of those make my head hurt, those of you who are wheel builders have my utmost respect. :thumb:

I always wanted to do a crows foot, but have no idea how!

There's nothing special going on, Just imagine the wheel's drive side and non drive side as completely separate wheels. The Drive side is a regular old 3 cross rear wheel, and the NDS is a standard 2 cross exactly like if you were building a front wheel 2 cross.

Read the article in post #3, and check this one out as well http://spokeanwheel.110mb.com/lacingcf.htm

I haven't done it yet, but the explanation is pretty straightforward. I'm thinking that my rear wheel is gonna be either 2/3 cross or half crows-foot. Its a 32 hole wheel, and crow's foot lacing only works on drillings that are multiples of 6. I'm a total neophyte at this...i'm just going by the articles I've read.

on a similar subject it would seem that since higher crossed spokes transmit torque best and more radial spokes confer lateral stiffness that a radial laced front wheel would be optimal since it doesn't have to transmit any torque. Yes? no?

Doesn't braking (especially hub brakes) equate to torque?

I suppose so......Especially Hub Brakes

I love the thought of all of this, but I'm sticking with 3-cross until I'm really good at that.

Radial front wheels work for rim brakes but are not suitable for hub brakes as they are unable to handle the braking forces.

I am a boring wheel builder... usually 2-4 crosses and a reasonable number of spokes is the norm and have built crowsfoot wheels for other folks and keep meaning to do a set for myself as it is a very solid lacing pattern and was actually used on stock bicycles many moons ago.

It is a more labour intensive build as there are multiple spoke lengths and a slightly more complex lacing procedure but more than doable for anyone with patience and decent mechanical skills.

Thanks, I'm liking this idea for the wheelset I need to build yet for my Fuji Professional. Seeing how I'm going with lighter DB spokes (2.0/1.5/2.0) any strength I can gain from the build itself will be a good thing I think. I'd do 2x/3x rear and 3x front, that sound about right?

Yeah, don't radial lace a front wheel with hub brakes. :) Wheeeeee!

Only thing I'd suggest is to do 2 cross in the front. You'll get more lateral strength and save a tiny bit of weight due to the shorter spokes required. Its probably only a few grams of savings to be fair, but it all adds up. You gonna do brass or alloy nipples? I've got a bad taste in my mouth after seeing some old alloy nipples crumble in my hands but i guess its a weight/durability trade off.

I've been using a 2 cross front wheel that I built on my Team Miyata for a couple of seasons now with no issues and I ride it on some pretty rough pavement.

I considered using the Sapim Lasers on my 650B build (36h and 3-cross front and rear). I asked Lee (spoke dude) if he advised this for a person of my weight (185#) considering it was a smaller diameter wheel and 36h versus 32h. He said I could probably get by with it, but he felt it would be better to err on the side of strength and ease of building them up (thinner spokes twist much more). He noted that all spoke manufacturers like to say that they're butted spokes are so strong, but his common sense tells him less material equates to less strength and there is a point of diminishing returns, I suppose. I took his advice and ordered the Sapim Race spokes.

I use the 12mm chrome plated brass nipples (he also sells the 16mm versions for more of a vintage look). I'm not an experienced wheel builder so I've no interest in playing with alloy nipples.

I always 2x my front wheels, I only use straight gauge spokes (almost always 2.0, especially for rear wheels), and brass nipples. I think im gonna try and find a nice 36 spoke hoop for next season and build a half crows foot (or doa 32 spoke hybrid) specially for sprint nights in club training.

alloy vs brass? no question in my mind. Brass.

The only lacing pattern I won't build is the twised spokes, weirdly tensioned
and weirder looking.

Another interesting read:
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=7387
and the follow up:
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=9446
not totally C&V but a fun read.

That is a cool read lotek. Definitely some good things to take note of from a master wheelbuilder.

I liked seeing this, partially because its something I started doing recently on my own volition and it really works.

sounds stupid simple, but that's a good thing for a guy like me :)

When you're doing a 3X/3X lacing, you install the first set of spokes on one side (at least if you follow Sheldon), then you flip the wheel over and install the second set. Assuming you install the first spoke one flange hole [partial offset] over, then you lace it into the rim the same one spoke hole over.

Now if you're doing this 3X/2X, the first spoke in the second set (the 2X) will not lace into the first spoke hole (on the rim) over, but into the first hole "back". If you laced a 3X/1X, you'd count back another set [of two - one each side], and for radial you'd count back three sets.

I'm sure this is clear as mud. But it's pretty easy to demonstrate with a wheel in your hand.

Regarding the Balduzzi tip: Brandst's instructions include that technique. Something like, "leave three threads showing on each nipple, then go back around and hide all threads on each nipple". Worked great for me on my first build and I think it always will so long as your spoke lengths are correct.

That's a thought and they will be low-flange hubs too. Thanks.

Alloy nipples, not on your life. Yeah, Lee is where I'd be getting them so I'll ping him with my plans too and see what he says. Nice he'll order the Lasers if you want though.

Actually no, it makes sense....and besides, it wouldn't be the first time I've laced and unlaced, laced, and unlaced... :)

When I did my first crowsfoot wheels, thirty years ago :eek:, I thought I had invented the idea. It's not hard to do on a 36 spoke wheel. I would have to think for a while before I could do it on any other number. You need a number of spokes that's divisible by 6. You start by building the wheel as if it were radial, with six spokes per side. Might as well true and dish it at this point, but don't tension it up yet. Then you add a cross, which can be 2x 3x or 4x, over each radial spoke. True and tension and you're done.

Other things you can try are twisting the spokes for a "snowflake" look, which is easy enough but very difficult to tension correctly, so not recommended for a wheel that will get heavy loads. The front wheel on my folding bike has twisted spokes and that's fine after 9000 miles. The rear wheel on my touring bike was a bad candidate for this, it started popping spokes after 300 miles and I have only myself to blame. It's fine on a kids bike, of course. It's a good way to use existing spokes that are 4 or 5 mm too long.

Let me dig up some photos and get back to you on this.

photos would be most welcome...I'd love to see those twisted spokes.