Rate The Italians...
09-11-11, 10:08 AM
#251
Wrench Savant
Marketing, luck, "buzz," are clearly factors. I think Bruce Gordon is a prime example of a guy with all the experience, skills, and whose bikes often exude character, yet whose order books are wide open and whose earlier efforts do not command big dollars when they come up for sale. It's usually not enough just to build a better mousetrap.
I think your point about the differences between the Italian model and the US one when it comes to increasingly production is an interesting one. I wonder if Trek, your example, would have expanded differently if the labor to do so had been ready to hand, or whether Tim Isaac's vision for how to build a lot of high-quality bicycles would still have held sway. I suspect there are cultural differences at play here - i.e. a more analytical approach to the issue rather than an appeal to tradition. Certainly many Italians really struggled to maintain quality during periods of rapid expansion - even folks like De Rosa. I think much of the hand labor was on the way out either way.
Production steel shops like Waterford and Serotta (at one time) were anomalies, but ones that taught a number of talented people their craft. Some went on to establish themselves, like Kirk and Wages, and some remained anonymous. Same of course is true of the outsourcing system in Italy. When the names of top fillet brazers come up, no one mentions Leo Castellon, but he was very, very good (though he worked at a production shop other than Waterford or Serotta). The guy whose name was on the decals of the bikes he built gets all the credit. That's how it works.
I think the situation is different now with respect to small builders establishing themselves and their products maintaining value in the long run simply because the milieu has paradigm-shifted hard. Steel bikes 20 years ago were raced at the highest levels of the sport, and this was a driver of the industry. Now, steel bikes are a self-consciously niche cottage industry. A thriving one, but culturally different from the original industry, like many "boutique" industries - tube guitar amplifiers, vintage musical instruments, etc.
I think your point about the differences between the Italian model and the US one when it comes to increasingly production is an interesting one. I wonder if Trek, your example, would have expanded differently if the labor to do so had been ready to hand, or whether Tim Isaac's vision for how to build a lot of high-quality bicycles would still have held sway. I suspect there are cultural differences at play here - i.e. a more analytical approach to the issue rather than an appeal to tradition. Certainly many Italians really struggled to maintain quality during periods of rapid expansion - even folks like De Rosa. I think much of the hand labor was on the way out either way.
Production steel shops like Waterford and Serotta (at one time) were anomalies, but ones that taught a number of talented people their craft. Some went on to establish themselves, like Kirk and Wages, and some remained anonymous. Same of course is true of the outsourcing system in Italy. When the names of top fillet brazers come up, no one mentions Leo Castellon, but he was very, very good (though he worked at a production shop other than Waterford or Serotta). The guy whose name was on the decals of the bikes he built gets all the credit. That's how it works.
I think the situation is different now with respect to small builders establishing themselves and their products maintaining value in the long run simply because the milieu has paradigm-shifted hard. Steel bikes 20 years ago were raced at the highest levels of the sport, and this was a driver of the industry. Now, steel bikes are a self-consciously niche cottage industry. A thriving one, but culturally different from the original industry, like many "boutique" industries - tube guitar amplifiers, vintage musical instruments, etc.
Bruce Gordon is only one of many builders whose order book may be way too empty. Where some small builders seem to be focused on very limited/custom production for a small number of people and a high price ($3000-4000 range), Bruce Gordon seem to have tired to keep offerings at a lower price range, probably at a higher volume. I would point out that he has an established reputation in the touring market and his products to get their due in that area. He is not known as well for racing bikes, and I think some of his lack of backlog may be from the same resurgance in small frame builders he helped to promote. In that sense, you are likely correct that that the paradigm has shifted and he may be in an example why the older Trek/Romic/others model no longer works.
09-11-11, 10:23 AM
#252
Wrench Savant
If he doesn't think there are any significant differences between marques' values, then why is he here on C&V discussing things? Does he want framebuilders to make a better living? Who doesn't, on this forum? Does he want all vintage road bikes to be available for $300, regardless of the marque? Who doesn't? Why is there air?
BTW- If all older bikes cost $300, I would be broke. As with anything, I expect there to be a difference in value between marques, but I think it is not always warranted. The discussion about smaller framebuilders of today is merely a development of the discussion no longer on topic. Picchio is right, I think the paradigm has changed from what it was 20-30 years ago, but I am not so sure we are in exact agrement as to were it is going.
My point is that historically, it takes along time (a decade or more) for framebuildes to build a reputation such that their frames start to gain cult status and may start to appriciate in value. This helps with keeping them in business (Richard Sachs is the example you mentioned). Based upon this, the relatively large number of new builders who have entered the market, only to leave due to all the reasons we have mentioned, will not achieve such notoriety, and their frames will not likely ever achive such cult status. It is the few that stick it out that will. It is just darn hard to do that any longer.
09-11-11, 10:35 AM
#253
Wrench Savant
That many framebuilders are passionate, but aren't great business persons? That is certainly true, but it is true of many people in all aspects of the cycling industry, imo.
09-11-11, 11:08 AM
#254
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I have countered that it does not, and that Mr. Confente's reputation proceeded his all-too-short personal business endevours by at least 10-years working at Masi and I belive Bianchi prior. Had he not been a racer of some success, and had he not spent that 10-years worth of proving himself, and becoming known for his work, those 130+ frame baring his name would be worth little more than the steel to which they are affixed.
You also seemed to have some issue with my use of Sacha White as an exception to the present day build-frames-for-five-years-and-get-out trend that some say exists. Though you disagreed with my short-hand math, you admitted than most frame builders have a very difficult time making a go of it. I admit that my math is a bit back-of-the-napkin, but I do not belive that I am not far off, if at all, and some of your own figures, though complied a different manner, are similar.
I guess my point is simple. Bicycles are functional machines, traditionally built largely by hand by craftsmen. A lot of vaule is placed not entirely upon reputation, but legend. You know Mike Appel (I wish I did), and if you know his skills, I believe that bikes he built were every bit as good as Mario Confente. But his bikes do not have the same recognition, nor carry the same premium. There are others out there, just as good, whom we will never know, who could build bikes just as fantastic, but they won't make it because they do not have the public personna which will bring business in the door, or allow them to command the value of the bikes they are building. Further, I belive that this movie is not over yet, and I am axious to see how the smaller shops develop and do potentiall bigger things (similar to Vanilla). That is all.
I have countered that it does not, and that Mr. Confente's reputation proceeded his all-too-short personal business endevours by at least 10-years working at Masi and I belive Bianchi prior. Had he not been a racer of some success, and had he not spent that 10-years worth of proving himself, and becoming known for his work, those 130+ frame baring his name would be worth little more than the steel to which they are affixed.
You also seemed to have some issue with my use of Sacha White as an exception to the present day build-frames-for-five-years-and-get-out trend that some say exists. Though you disagreed with my short-hand math, you admitted than most frame builders have a very difficult time making a go of it. I admit that my math is a bit back-of-the-napkin, but I do not belive that I am not far off, if at all, and some of your own figures, though complied a different manner, are similar.
I guess my point is simple. Bicycles are functional machines, traditionally built largely by hand by craftsmen. A lot of vaule is placed not entirely upon reputation, but legend. You know Mike Appel (I wish I did), and if you know his skills, I believe that bikes he built were every bit as good as Mario Confente. But his bikes do not have the same recognition, nor carry the same premium. There are others out there, just as good, whom we will never know, who could build bikes just as fantastic, but they won't make it because they do not have the public personna which will bring business in the door, or allow them to command the value of the bikes they are building. Further, I belive that this movie is not over yet, and I am axious to see how the smaller shops develop and do potentiall bigger things (similar to Vanilla). That is all.
As to why a builder gets attention and keeps it, marketing will only go so far. There has to be a compelling reason why the bikes are sought over. Confente for his time had it, he really knew good aesthetics.
Bruce Gordon was cited as a builder not getting the reputation he deserves, I agree, but his design it not in concert with his quality. Sorry Bruce, asymmetrical on a bike frame does not have high perceived value. His cantilever brakes are pretty, he can do good form, but...
Mr. Sachs admits he had a enlightening moment when he saw Mario's bikes at their introduction at the New York bike show in '77 or so. So did Serotta. It took Richard much study and effort to create his style now which well known but is quite derivative. His early efforts were not compelling visually.
In summation, it is more than the sum of the parts and the quality of the metalwork and the geometry, it is the aesthetics in the effort. A good graphic designer does not hurt either.
09-11-11, 11:38 AM
#255
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09-11-11, 11:44 AM
#256
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I had an unmarked Italian frame with Campy dropouts and ends, and it was fantastic. Speculation had been that it was Falck.
09-11-11, 04:29 PM
#258
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Cinelli lost the source for old Cinzano tinplate signs to Cyclops SpA
Thanks for the memory-jog, Repechage!
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09-11-11, 04:53 PM
#259
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I know that some of the Marnatis that were imported in the 80s had Falck tubing...I've seen two that had it.
09-11-11, 04:53 PM
#260
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^ As near as I can tell, the last Cyclops "article" came in the November 1979 issue of R&T. Written by Robert Cumberford and illustrated by the aforementioned Stan Mott, it chronicled the one-off Cyclops XII, built to the exacting specifications of Piero Martini for the Middle Eastern market.
No recycled Cinzano signs, however, here. The body of XII was done in an "epoxy fiber composite, in which the fibers are individually hand-laid Piedmontese blond virgin's hair (red fibers are a $65,000 option)".
That should give you some idea of the article. It's a scream.
DD
No recycled Cinzano signs, however, here. The body of XII was done in an "epoxy fiber composite, in which the fibers are individually hand-laid Piedmontese blond virgin's hair (red fibers are a $65,000 option)".
That should give you some idea of the article. It's a scream.
DD
09-11-11, 06:04 PM
#261
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^ As near as I can tell, the last Cyclops "article" came in the November 1979 issue of R&T. Written by Robert Cumberford and illustrated by the aforementioned Stan Mott, it chronicled the one-off Cyclops XII, built to the exacting specifications of Piero Martini for the Middle Eastern market.
No recycled Cinzano signs, however, here. The body of XII was done in an "epoxy fiber composite, in which the fibers are individually hand-laid Piedmontese blond virgin's hair (red fibers are a $65,000 option)".
That should give you some idea of the article. It's a scream.
DD
No recycled Cinzano signs, however, here. The body of XII was done in an "epoxy fiber composite, in which the fibers are individually hand-laid Piedmontese blond virgin's hair (red fibers are a $65,000 option)".
That should give you some idea of the article. It's a scream.
DD
https://sbiii.com/cyclops/cyclops.html
09-12-11, 08:38 PM
#262
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09-14-11, 10:43 AM
#263
Strong Walker
I myself wouldn't count Alans among the most desireable italian brands, they are just too common.Hence the "etc"... they are among the Ciöccs and the Olmos out there for me. I've met and had a Café with Sr. Tommasini himself, he is a good man and he builds brilliant bikes, yet they don't appeal to my senses as much as other italian bikes do. Possibly my fault.
09-14-11, 05:01 PM
#264
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They are a bit like an Alfa Romeo 33/146/156: good design, shoddy reliability, common on the market and Italian all the way.
09-14-11, 06:36 PM
#265
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How do you mean lack in function? I'm sure there is a reason why there's an ALAN in your keeper fleet. It's true that they are dime a dozen, especially with all those rebrands for Guerciotti and the like. But for the reasons the OP posted (and these have been forgotten as the thread moved on) an ALAN would be very good. They have a lot of Italian flair, are available and build up real nice with campy components.
They are a bit like an Alfa Romeo 33/146/156: good design, shoddy reliability, common on the market and Italian all the way.
They are a bit like an Alfa Romeo 33/146/156: good design, shoddy reliability, common on the market and Italian all the way.
Last edited by Gary Fountain; 09-14-11 at 07:56 PM.
09-14-11, 06:49 PM
#266
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When Alan frames were showing up on the winner's podium in cyclocross, they were new, (folk were not racing old examples) they were lighter than a typical steel bike of the time, they did not rust. (yes they were going to oxidize and the galvanic potential was not thought of back then) The Alan design also provided a fairly compliant ride. I rode a new Alan way back in 1974 to see what they were like, a co-worker who I could essentially trade bikes with our set up was so similar and while I felt the bike was "soft" feeling when out of the saddle, it did seem like a bike I could ride all day and handled well. The "erector set" look of some of the details was different. I felt at the time the decision to maintain "steel" O.D. tube dimensions was an error, the Teledyne Titan having already paved the way for mainstream oversize tubing... They "worked' This was before any aging issues showed up, and the round section forks looked very cool.
09-14-11, 07:24 PM
#267
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When Alan frames were showing up on the winner's podium in cyclocross, they were new, (folk were not racing old examples) they were lighter than a typical steel bike of the time, they did not rust. (yes they were going to oxidize and the galvanic potential was not thought of back then) The Alan design also provided a fairly compliant ride. I rode a new Alan way back in 1974 to see what they were like, a co-worker who I could essentially trade bikes with our set up was so similar and while I felt the bike was "soft" feeling when out of the saddle, it did seem like a bike I could ride all day and handled well. The "erector set" look of some of the details was different. I felt at the time the decision to maintain "steel" O.D. tube dimensions was an error, the Teledyne Titan having already paved the way for mainstream oversize tubing... They "worked' This was before any aging issues showed up, and the round section forks looked very cool.
As Italuminium writes, "they are a dime a dozen" suggests that there are quite a few that have stood the test of time. Personally, I have never come across an Alan frame that has needed to be re-bonded but I'm here in Australia and perhaps we didn't import a great number into the country. I have been interested in Alan's since the late 80's though and have always taken an interest in them whenever I have come across them.
I think the Alan's are an Italian design of noteworthy interest and should be considered along side the other iconic Italian brands.
Last edited by Gary Fountain; 09-14-11 at 07:49 PM.
09-14-11, 08:41 PM
#268
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Originally Posted by ciocc_cat
As they say, to each his own. 
"Not so sexy?" Uh, of course you are most certainly entitled to your opinion, but have you ever actually ridden a real Pelizzoli-built Ciocc? Just curious.
09-14-11, 10:06 PM
#269
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I own an 89 Team ADR replica Bottecchia in SPX. It was the top or second to the top model at the time. Obviously Bottecchias became really popular when Lemond won while being sponsored by them. That's what got me into them. I love my bike and I have compared it up close with many other brands of Italian and Japanese bikes. I don't feel I have seen a production frameset that looks better than mine. It rides wonderfully. However, I will say that Colnago and Carnielli (the builder of Bottecchias) have different philosophies of how a road racing bike's geometry should be. If you bought a Colnago and Bottecchia in the same size I believe they would ride vastly different. I believe Carnielli built using the most common Italian geometry, similar to Mondonico. In addition to ADR, Bottecchia also sponsored another pro team, ZG Nobili. You can check them out here
https://www.dewielersite.net/db2/wiel...he.php?id=9158
https://www.dewielersite.net/db2/wiel...he.php?id=9158
09-15-11, 03:48 AM
#271
Senior Member
Brave attempt by Martl to put everything into perpective. I own an Alan myself and two other Italians that fortunately didn't get Martl's treatment yet. My Alan is a Super Record with 50th. I like it. It is not a perfect fit with my preferances, but it is an okay bike. It is fair to compare them with the nice Alfas Italuminum mentions, but a post war Alfa is no 8C 2300 Monza.
didn't get Martl's treatment yet. My Alan is a Super Record with 50th. I like it. It is not a perfect fit with my preferances, but it is an okay bike. It is fair to compare them with the nice Alfas Italuminum mentions, but a post war Alfa is no 8C 2300 Monza.
09-15-11, 06:35 AM
#272
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Brave attempt by Martl to put everything into perpective. I own an Alan myself and two other Italians that fortunately didn't get Martl's treatment yet. My Alan is a Super Record with 50th. I like it. It is not a perfect fit with my preferances, but it is an okay bike. It is fair to compare them with the nice Alfas Italuminum mentions, but a post war Alfa is no 8C 2300 Monza.
didn't get Martl's treatment yet. My Alan is a Super Record with 50th. I like it. It is not a perfect fit with my preferances, but it is an okay bike. It is fair to compare them with the nice Alfas Italuminum mentions, but a post war Alfa is no 8C 2300 Monza.
09-20-11, 02:18 PM
#274
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Well, I really found a bike that I liked and I almost pulled the trigger on it, but I let it go for a couple of reasons.
First, it was an Atala. Not that I have anything against the brand, as I think they made some very handsome bikes, but I know they don't carry much weight against the other Italians that were mentioned. I've heard it said that they were the Italian Schwinn. A big mass producer.
Second, I thought the opening price was abit to much. I've heard many mention here on the forum that they got there Atala's pretty cheap. This bike also had Ofmega gruppo equipment, and although I liked the uniquness of that, it would have been worth the price had it had Campy, not Ofmega. The bike though looked very clean.
Tell me what you think - https://www.ebay.com/itm/230670341387...84.m1438.l2649
It didn't sell, so maybe I was not the only guy who thought the price was to high?
First, it was an Atala. Not that I have anything against the brand, as I think they made some very handsome bikes, but I know they don't carry much weight against the other Italians that were mentioned. I've heard it said that they were the Italian Schwinn. A big mass producer.
Second, I thought the opening price was abit to much. I've heard many mention here on the forum that they got there Atala's pretty cheap. This bike also had Ofmega gruppo equipment, and although I liked the uniquness of that, it would have been worth the price had it had Campy, not Ofmega. The bike though looked very clean.
Tell me what you think - https://www.ebay.com/itm/230670341387...84.m1438.l2649
It didn't sell, so maybe I was not the only guy who thought the price was to high?
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09-20-11, 03:16 PM
#275
Senior Member
The price was too high, and remember pictures at a distance can make a bike look a lot cleaner than it is. The one close-up shows that the paint (look a the blue section on the seat-tube) is not so great after all. I have an Atala Record frame that is a beautiful rider and the craftsmanship on it is top-notch, but it is a '67, not an '86. For $350 you should be able to get a nice Italian bike, especially at this time of year. I would say craigslist will be a better bet for you than ebay, shipping adds a ton to your overall cost. Here's a nice frame that's local to you for the same price: https://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/bik/2583660164.html you could pick that up and then get another bike as a donor for parts.
Or this sounds like a great deal: https://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/bik/2607174317.html It sounds like an Atala Record (it pretty much has to be if all the information is correct) for $150? Full Campy Record? Boy I wish I was in New York...
Or this sounds like a great deal: https://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/bik/2607174317.html It sounds like an Atala Record (it pretty much has to be if all the information is correct) for $150? Full Campy Record? Boy I wish I was in New York...