Modern vs. Classic: Performance Difference?
10-19-11 | 04:41 AM
#26
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,287
Likes: 15
From: the 904, Jax fl
Your overall fitness has a LOT more to do with how you do than what you are riding!
The bike could make the slightest of difference in that length race, but VERY slight.
If you are worried over tenths of seconds, then I tip my hat to you! But at 40 k, that is all you are talking.
Lighter wheels and tires,= bigger difference. More work in the transitions= bigger difference.
But most of all, Better fitness= a HUGE difference!
The lesser pro riders, in the pro pelton, can ride away from us mere mortals on a X-mart mtb bike!
It's really, not the bike.
I have been blessed to ride with a pro, a couple of times.
He rode up the biggest hill around, looked back, rode back down, and back up before I could ride up one time.
We rode again a couple of days latter, or I should say I rode, he skated, and I still couldn't keep up.
You can trust me on this, It's not the bike!!!
The bike could make the slightest of difference in that length race, but VERY slight.
If you are worried over tenths of seconds, then I tip my hat to you! But at 40 k, that is all you are talking.
Lighter wheels and tires,= bigger difference. More work in the transitions= bigger difference.
But most of all, Better fitness= a HUGE difference!
The lesser pro riders, in the pro pelton, can ride away from us mere mortals on a X-mart mtb bike!
It's really, not the bike.
I have been blessed to ride with a pro, a couple of times.
He rode up the biggest hill around, looked back, rode back down, and back up before I could ride up one time.
We rode again a couple of days latter, or I should say I rode, he skated, and I still couldn't keep up.
You can trust me on this, It's not the bike!!!
10-19-11 | 04:43 AM
#27
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 17,196
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From: Ann Arbor, MI
Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8
Re the Trek 610: Mine is a 1984 and has both BB flex and a low to middle BB drop (7.2 cm). When I was younger I tried to ride it pretty fast and pedaled through turns, and even with the skinny Shimano 600 pedals had pedal strikes a few times. One thing that always turns me off about tri bikes is the higher BB to ground clearance. You might want that. On the other hand, due to a typically forward weight distribution, tri bikes don't always handle as well in corners as a good road bike - a point in favor of the Trek 610. Ditto for ride quality, since mine is really pretty comfy.
In any event, I'd suggest getting the best fitter in your area to recheck your fit and see if there are any optimizations you should make. Your 610 will be at her best, and THEN you can see if she's up to the task. If you change the position, do it early enough that you have time to acclimate before the event.
10-19-11 | 04:45 AM
#28
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Joined: Dec 2007
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My guess is that, at 54 years old, doing one triathlon a year, simply buying a $10,000 bike will make him maybe 2 minutes faster, at most, over the 40k bike distance. Doing other items on the list, without the $10,000 bike, will beat that. Been there, done that, same distance.
Gear to your optimum range
another hour a week in the pool
another hour a week running
another hour practicing transitions
know your course and maintain momentum
shift without upsetting your pace
balance the effort you put into each leg
or
buy a $10,000 bike.
Gear to your optimum range
another hour a week in the pool
another hour a week running
another hour practicing transitions
know your course and maintain momentum
shift without upsetting your pace
balance the effort you put into each leg
or
buy a $10,000 bike.
10-19-11 | 06:01 AM
#30
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,287
Likes: 15
From: the 904, Jax fl
My guess is that, at 54 years old, doing one triathlon a year, simply buying a $10,000 bike will make him maybe 2 minutes faster, at most, over the 40k bike distance. Doing other items on the list, without the $10,000 bike, will beat that. Been there, done that, same distance.
Gear to your optimum range
another hour a week in the pool
another hour a week running
another hour practicing transitions
know your course and maintain momentum
shift without upsetting your pace
balance the effort you put into each leg
or
buy a $10,000 bike.
Gear to your optimum range
another hour a week in the pool
another hour a week running
another hour practicing transitions
know your course and maintain momentum
shift without upsetting your pace
balance the effort you put into each leg
or
buy a $10,000 bike.
This is assuming that he can get into almost the same position on the bike,
And the course does not have MAJOR climbs!
Other than that, I 100% agree!
10-19-11 | 06:03 AM
#31
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,857
Likes: 5,385
From: NW Burbs, Chicago
If we are doing a list, I'd put it in this order.
1. Ride 30 hours per week
2. Body fat under 10%
3. Aero bars with a proper fitting
4. Skin suit
5. Aero helmet
6. Aero booties
7. Aero wheels
8. Brifters with 10/11 in the rear
9. Light/aero frame
In a race with 100 people, if you do #1, I can guarantee a top 5 finish. If you do #9, I can guanantee a top 100 finish.
1. Ride 30 hours per week
2. Body fat under 10%
3. Aero bars with a proper fitting
4. Skin suit
5. Aero helmet
6. Aero booties
7. Aero wheels
8. Brifters with 10/11 in the rear
9. Light/aero frame
In a race with 100 people, if you do #1, I can guarantee a top 5 finish. If you do #9, I can guanantee a top 100 finish.
10-19-11 | 06:06 AM
#32
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,287
Likes: 15
From: the 904, Jax fl
If we are doing a list, I'd put it in this order.
1. Ride 30 hours per week
2. Body fat under 10%
3. Aero bars with a proper fitting
4. Skin suit
5. Aero helmet
6. Aero booties
7. Aero wheels
8. Brifters with 10/11 in the rear
9. Light/aero frame
In a race with 100 people, if you do #1, I can guarantee a top 5 finish. If you do #9, I can guanantee a top 100 finish.
1. Ride 30 hours per week
2. Body fat under 10%
3. Aero bars with a proper fitting
4. Skin suit
5. Aero helmet
6. Aero booties
7. Aero wheels
8. Brifters with 10/11 in the rear
9. Light/aero frame
In a race with 100 people, if you do #1, I can guarantee a top 5 finish. If you do #9, I can guanantee a top 100 finish.
10-19-11 | 06:14 AM
#33
cycles per second
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,972
Likes: 196
From: Minnesota
Bikes: Early 1980's Ishiwata 022 steel sport/touring, 1986 Vitus 979, 1988 DiamondBack Apex, 1997 Softride PowerWing 700, 2001 Trek OCLV 110
Are they pushing you toward a tri-bike? A tri-bike will put you in a more aerodynamic position which will be faster (as long as you train enough on it to adapt to that position). The forward "tri" position may also leave you fresher for the run but I don't think that's a huge difference. For ~10 years, I used an standard road bike with clip-on aeros (which did not put me in a "forward" position) for triathlons and I do recall that getting off the bike and transitioning to the run was a little tougher - maybe lose ~10 seconds in the first 1/2 mile or so while your legs get used to running. But I'd wait a few years before plunking down a lot of money on a specialty tri-bike unless you already are planning to race a lot of triathlons in the coming years.
10-19-11 | 06:26 AM
#34
cycles per second
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,972
Likes: 196
From: Minnesota
Bikes: Early 1980's Ishiwata 022 steel sport/touring, 1986 Vitus 979, 1988 DiamondBack Apex, 1997 Softride PowerWing 700, 2001 Trek OCLV 110
10-19-11 | 04:57 PM
#36
Banned.
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 27,199
Likes: 1,462
I went from a 1989 Ironman Expert, all Suntour GPX to a 2007 Kestrel Talon (all carbon, 9-sp DA) and the difference was pretty much moot.
My PR for the bike leg is still the day on the Ironman. I never missed a shift, kept momentum in the corners, never came off the drops.
The difference was so neglible, the transition times were the only variable. I had a better transition on the Ironman, as I ran the 5K (on a zoysia golf course) barefoot.... The race didn't measure transition times, so the 24.5 on the IM beat the 24.3 on the Kestrel.
My PR for the bike leg is still the day on the Ironman. I never missed a shift, kept momentum in the corners, never came off the drops.
The difference was so neglible, the transition times were the only variable. I had a better transition on the Ironman, as I ran the 5K (on a zoysia golf course) barefoot.... The race didn't measure transition times, so the 24.5 on the IM beat the 24.3 on the Kestrel.
10-19-11 | 05:33 PM
#37
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,579
Likes: 6
From: Pearland, Texas
Bikes: Cannondale, Trek, Raleigh, Santana
Formerff, If you were to race in a crit, you'd have a distinct disadvantage. You're not, so you want aerodynamic assistance by riding in the drops and aerobars.
With 126 mm rear spacing you can use a 130 mm hub and go 8-10S with indexed DT or bar end shifters, if you feel you need to do something with the drivetrain.
Brad
With 126 mm rear spacing you can use a 130 mm hub and go 8-10S with indexed DT or bar end shifters, if you feel you need to do something with the drivetrain.
Brad
10-19-11 | 09:13 PM
#38
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
From: Roswell
Bikes: Trek 610, Cannondale Bad Boy
Thanks, all for confirming what I suspected all along. When my boss first suggested getting a new bike, my reaction was that since I'm nowhere near winning my age class and am only competing against myself, can't I do that just as well on my old bike? The only reason I could see getting something newer would be if it would make a huge difference, and it won't. So here's what I'm going to do:
Ride the 610.
Get some clip on aerobars
Investigate some better tires. I'm still on 27 inch wheels, so I'll be limited in what I can get.
Possibly replace the rear derailleur, as I think the original one may be getting tired.
Equipment wise, that's it, unless I find that I need more gears after I test ride the course, which I'll do shortly after the race date is set.
Training wise, my wife and I are going to start a round of Power 90 next week. That will improve my overall strength and flexibility. It will also get me down to 150 lbs, which is as light as I should ever be. (I'm 5' 11"). Some time this winter, get some swim coaching. Also, I've got to work on my running shoe setup. After the sprint tri this year, I did some running and found that I had some more speed available, but that using it made my knees hurt. I have terribly flat feet, so I'm looking into some more aggressive orthotics. I'm also going to add a training regime to try to add some speed to both the ride and the run. I may be able to pick up the pace on the swim a little, but am mostly concerned about getting out of the water in good shape. At the sprint tri, there were a bunch of guys who went out too fast on the swim and got out of the water so tired that I caught them on the run from the beach to the transition area. I'm not going to make that mistake.
Oh yeah, two months before the race, eliminate all sugar, refined carbohydrates and alcohol from my diet. Nutrition counts.
Ride the 610.
Get some clip on aerobars
Investigate some better tires. I'm still on 27 inch wheels, so I'll be limited in what I can get.
Possibly replace the rear derailleur, as I think the original one may be getting tired.
Equipment wise, that's it, unless I find that I need more gears after I test ride the course, which I'll do shortly after the race date is set.
Training wise, my wife and I are going to start a round of Power 90 next week. That will improve my overall strength and flexibility. It will also get me down to 150 lbs, which is as light as I should ever be. (I'm 5' 11"). Some time this winter, get some swim coaching. Also, I've got to work on my running shoe setup. After the sprint tri this year, I did some running and found that I had some more speed available, but that using it made my knees hurt. I have terribly flat feet, so I'm looking into some more aggressive orthotics. I'm also going to add a training regime to try to add some speed to both the ride and the run. I may be able to pick up the pace on the swim a little, but am mostly concerned about getting out of the water in good shape. At the sprint tri, there were a bunch of guys who went out too fast on the swim and got out of the water so tired that I caught them on the run from the beach to the transition area. I'm not going to make that mistake.
Oh yeah, two months before the race, eliminate all sugar, refined carbohydrates and alcohol from my diet. Nutrition counts.
10-20-11 | 04:56 AM
#39
.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 12,769
Likes: 38
From: Rocket City, No'ala
Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 5.2, 1985 Pinarello Treviso, 1990 Gardin Shred, 2006 Bianchi San Jose
I've just committed to entering an international distance (1.5k swim, 40k bike, 10 k run) triathlon next spring. My boss, who's a big time triathlete, tells me I need to replace my '84 Trek 610 with something up to date. I rode it in a sprint distance tri (400m swim, 20k bike, 5 k run) last year and did fine, but that was against a bunch of first timers. Both he and my wife think I need some up to date piece of plastrickery for this, but I'm not so sure. On one hand, it would be nice to have indexed shifting, and a shorter low gear, but I'm not seeing that I'd gain that much by spending the money on a new ride. He keeps telling me that I'll be a lot fresher for the run, and I suspect he knows what he's talking about, but would like to get some other opinions. Anyone care to share your experiences on a new vs. a vintage ride, performance wise? The course I'll be riding is somewhat hilly.
Go test ride some new bikes and see for yourself.
Why ask the Classic and Vintage their opinion of new bikes? Seriously, do you need reassurance that your '84 is okay? It is. But go test ride those new bikes anyways.
10-20-11 | 06:53 PM
#40
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
From: Roswell
Bikes: Trek 610, Cannondale Bad Boy
I have a newer bike, a Cannondale Bad Boy. The reason I asked this board about the difference between a new bike and my old Trek is that some of the posters here will have experience on both. From what I can tell, I'll be giving up two things: stiffness and quick gear changes. My experience on the Bad Boy tells me that the a new bike would only be incrementally faster, and I wanted to ask other riders if that was their experience.
10-20-11 | 11:04 PM
#41
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 322
Likes: 0
From: Minneapolis
Bikes: old lotus
If you are looking to invest in equipment to get faster the best things to buy assuming that you don't have them already are as follows.
1. Clip on aero bars and enough training time to get comfortable with them
2. A decent clipless setup(pedals and shoes)
The benefits of aerobars are obvious but if you've never used clipless pedals I can't recommend them highly enough for racing. A decent setup will last you a long time and if you do get more into cycling you can easily transfer the pedals to a new bike.
1. Clip on aero bars and enough training time to get comfortable with them
2. A decent clipless setup(pedals and shoes)
The benefits of aerobars are obvious but if you've never used clipless pedals I can't recommend them highly enough for racing. A decent setup will last you a long time and if you do get more into cycling you can easily transfer the pedals to a new bike.
10-21-11 | 06:45 AM
#43
I'm doing it wrong.
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,875
Likes: 2,814
Bikes: Rivendell Appaloosa, Rivendell Frank Jones Sr., Trek Fuel EX9, Kona Jake the Snake CR, Niner Sir9
10-21-11 | 07:53 AM
#46
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Bikes: 1989 Trek 1500 58 2009 Cannondale CAAD 9 5
I have a good friend whose old Tri bike sits in my garage. It is a Cilo, with Shimano 600 parts. He trained and raced on that bike for 5 years it was a DT shifted steel frame early 80's bike. His bike is incredible he does a full ironman in 10:31 in hilly lake placid at 54 years old. His swim not so much, but he is a 3 hour marathoner. I say its the motor in the athlete and not the bike. His brother did however get him a Slice recently so he gave me the Cilo. I cant wait to see if his time improves next year.
10-21-11 | 08:57 PM
#47
Senior Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,959
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From: Flagler Palm Coast, FL
Bikes: 1986 Fuji Allegro 12 Spd; 2015 Bianchi Kuma 27.2 24 Spd; 1997 Fuji MX-200 21 Spd; 2010 Vilano SS/FG 46/16
Just me, but anytime you can cut some time off one aspect of the tri competition, it may not seem like much to the individual running it. But 5-10 minutes off the cycling time translates to 5-10 minutes devoted to the next phase of the tri. It's a matter of what the competition/opponents are in terms of hope and the demoralizing effects it has on their psyche too. Let's say you can pedal the bike 25 mph and the bike upgrade gets you to 27 or 28 mph ? In an hour that's 2-3 miles you are ahead of the competition, at that point, they can't see you, they won't be able to see you when they do the swim or run either. There's nothing more demoralizing than having your best run on the bike turn into a run away victory by your opponent. The best that you can do is not panic and hope you catch or make up that time in one of the other events. The water might become thicker soup for the competition and the run might become more difficult as the day wears on too ? When the other guy crosses the finish line and he's thinking how far ahead you were, how long had you finished before he got there ?
10-22-11 | 05:08 AM
#48
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,287
Likes: 15
From: the 904, Jax fl
I do not think ANY bike, with the exception of a motor bike, will up your speed 3 mph over 40k.
Maybe if you were on a single speed beach cruiser. Or a sit up tricycle, or maybe a full blown mtb.
But not coming from a vintage touring bike to even a Slice. Not going to happen without training.
Not in the long haul. You will be excited about the new bike, and your speed will get a small amount faster, but after a while, it wears off.
It's still you that is pedaling.
Maybe if you were on a single speed beach cruiser. Or a sit up tricycle, or maybe a full blown mtb.
But not coming from a vintage touring bike to even a Slice. Not going to happen without training.
Not in the long haul. You will be excited about the new bike, and your speed will get a small amount faster, but after a while, it wears off.
It's still you that is pedaling.
10-22-11 | 08:16 AM
#49
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 244
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From: St. Charles, MO
Bikes: Trek Domane 4.5, Kona Jake, Centurion LeMans RS
My opinion, only:
I've yet to meet a real or self-proclaimed "big time" triathlete who didn't think you could buy speed.
I've never met one who didn't tell someone to get a newer, lighter, more aero tri-bike.
Bike shops love them. Better aero, Zipps, helmets, aero shoe covers, the whole nine yards, at retail.
The fact is, you can buy a faster bike. Another fact is that it doesn't always make you faster.
You still have to ride it, and be good at doing so.
Another fact is that it only matters if you're competing against people about as fast as you are.
The people that are faster than you are faster despite your bike, and despite their bikes.
There is a heirarchy to getting faster:
Gearing to your optimum range is money more efficiently spent.
An hour more a week in the pool is time more efficiently spent.
Add another hour a week running, and you'll gain there AND on the bike.
Add another hour practicing transitions, and you'll gain quite a bit.
Know your course and how to maintain momentum in the corners, etc.
Knowing how/when to shift without upsetting your pace is crucial.
Learning to balance the effort you put into each leg is crucial.
Adding a faster bike is far down on the list as far as getting out what you put in.
I see very few folks at the end of triathlons coming in with a photo finish.
About halfway through the run, where you finish is pretty much set.
The best triathlete I ever met rode a DT-shifted aluminum road bike with aero bars.
No one could touch him on the bike, and it really didn't matter what we had.
One of the best triathletes I know, right now, rides a DT-shifted Brew steel bike, full-time drops.
I helped a novice train on a steel bike. She won her age group the first two times out.
She traded the steel in for a carbon fiber road bike. She was no faster, and couldn't figure out why.
She bought a Cervelo P2K, and was no faster, and couldn't figure out why.
My explanation is that she thought she had a disadvantage on the steel bike, and pushed herself harder.
I still believe that. She is a lot more comfortable on her tri-bike, but no faster; actually a bit slower.
If that comfort helps her on the run, then good, but she never attacked with the steel, and never burned out.
On the tri-bike, she about does a hole shot the first 3 miles, can't figure out why she's in O2 debt by 20 miles.
Being relaxed at the start of the bike leg and the run leg, to me, is worth 5 minutes on the bike, 2 minutes on the run.
In longer triathlons, the bike legs simply go to the better riders, period. They turn and burn, no matter the bike.
Quite often, it's over for all but the top two or three by the end of the bike leg. It's hard to make up much time on the run.
At that Olympic distance, the #1 error is going out too fast on the bike, because it not only kills the 2nd half of the bike leg for you, it really kills the run. Get your swim out of the way, establish a decent pace on the bike, and start looking to run down other cyclists from about 13 miles on. Same with the run, get the first couple of miles under your belt, get your stride smooth, and then look ahead for someone to track down.
I've yet to meet a real or self-proclaimed "big time" triathlete who didn't think you could buy speed.
I've never met one who didn't tell someone to get a newer, lighter, more aero tri-bike.
Bike shops love them. Better aero, Zipps, helmets, aero shoe covers, the whole nine yards, at retail.
The fact is, you can buy a faster bike. Another fact is that it doesn't always make you faster.
You still have to ride it, and be good at doing so.
Another fact is that it only matters if you're competing against people about as fast as you are.
The people that are faster than you are faster despite your bike, and despite their bikes.
There is a heirarchy to getting faster:
Gearing to your optimum range is money more efficiently spent.
An hour more a week in the pool is time more efficiently spent.
Add another hour a week running, and you'll gain there AND on the bike.
Add another hour practicing transitions, and you'll gain quite a bit.
Know your course and how to maintain momentum in the corners, etc.
Knowing how/when to shift without upsetting your pace is crucial.
Learning to balance the effort you put into each leg is crucial.
Adding a faster bike is far down on the list as far as getting out what you put in.
I see very few folks at the end of triathlons coming in with a photo finish.
About halfway through the run, where you finish is pretty much set.
The best triathlete I ever met rode a DT-shifted aluminum road bike with aero bars.
No one could touch him on the bike, and it really didn't matter what we had.
One of the best triathletes I know, right now, rides a DT-shifted Brew steel bike, full-time drops.
I helped a novice train on a steel bike. She won her age group the first two times out.
She traded the steel in for a carbon fiber road bike. She was no faster, and couldn't figure out why.
She bought a Cervelo P2K, and was no faster, and couldn't figure out why.
My explanation is that she thought she had a disadvantage on the steel bike, and pushed herself harder.
I still believe that. She is a lot more comfortable on her tri-bike, but no faster; actually a bit slower.
If that comfort helps her on the run, then good, but she never attacked with the steel, and never burned out.
On the tri-bike, she about does a hole shot the first 3 miles, can't figure out why she's in O2 debt by 20 miles.
Being relaxed at the start of the bike leg and the run leg, to me, is worth 5 minutes on the bike, 2 minutes on the run.
In longer triathlons, the bike legs simply go to the better riders, period. They turn and burn, no matter the bike.
Quite often, it's over for all but the top two or three by the end of the bike leg. It's hard to make up much time on the run.
At that Olympic distance, the #1 error is going out too fast on the bike, because it not only kills the 2nd half of the bike leg for you, it really kills the run. Get your swim out of the way, establish a decent pace on the bike, and start looking to run down other cyclists from about 13 miles on. Same with the run, get the first couple of miles under your belt, get your stride smooth, and then look ahead for someone to track down.