Ferrari or Cinelli red? Either is great by me.

John

Cinelli upper seat post lug
 

One of the biggest problems I had with this mystery frame was the upper seat post lug. It just wasn't Cinelli. But then I came accross this Cinelli track bike: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...es&FORM=IDFRIR
It has the same seat post lug as the mystery frame and it is genuine Cinelli. This frame is getting harder to dismiss as not Cinelli.

Oh shoot, Robbie, I found the bike! It is indeed an Equipe and in your words, maybe one of the early blue ones as you suggested. The owner of the Equipe you guys discussed a year or two ago described many of the same features that exist on my frame. Even the frame size is in the same place as mine along with the diamond lower rear stay bridge. Your advice to paint it red was the same then as it is now. I love it.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...quot-centurion

John

Small crowd, we are. I saved that thread to favorites....

I can't guarantee the Enzo red. Porkchop is a very large man and sometimes in ill health. I want him to live long enough to finish the bike, and the last one took 5 months. Cinelli red is almost orange, and I'm not sure of the pantone on that one. IMO, a bike in that shape should be scoured to the bare metal before being blasted, and I'd try a powdercoat on it in a heartbeat. The only exposed tubing would be the R chain stay. Then you come back and paint the panto's white. Or flat black with gold decals and gold housings....

Geepers, don't get me going. I'm ready to start it right now....

Someone has removed most of the paint but some small surface rust has begun. It looks like corrosion from paint stripper that was not completely flushed. Chrome is not good. The drive side rear stay generally exposed in chrome is marginal. The top tube has a very small and shallow dent. I asked a powder coater if there was material filler that would work with powder coat and he said there was but only good for thin filling. Not sure if this dent is too big for that material to work but I will ask. From the looks of this frame, it needs to be blasted inside and out and then frame saver applied. But structure is sound, solid and worthy of a good restoration. BTW, I have a complete Ofmega Mistral gruppo and NOS Premier FD and RD (nice to have choices) to put on this bike.

BTW, if you look at the head tube badge on that Equipe that looks like mine, you see a vertical Centurion decal with Cinelli Project under it. My head tube has the same type and size decale outline as this.

John

Premier/Mistral bits....
 

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...1&d=1273796966

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...2&d=1273797002

Julian, you had a heavy influence on my decision to secure Ofmega Premier derailleurs. Many agree that Premier was actually better than older Campy Nuovo Record RD. I tend to agree and think the Premier FD and RD look better too (same for Mistral cranks). I am trying to get a pair of NOS Mistral derailleurs from France. Price is very right but the seller will not use PayPal. Cost to wire funds is too expensive so we will have to see if the seller relents and takes PayPal after all.

Did you solve the headset issues?

I think so, Robbie. The genuine Equipe (chrome lugs, silver paint) has a 58 stamped on the steer tube just as it is stamped on the bb so the fork goes with this frame. I just purchased an alloy Ofmega headset but it doesn't look to be any shorter on stack height than a Campy Record. So, I have decided to cut the steer tube and add one inch or so of tube length. I have a length of .030" 4130 that will slide inside the steer tube. A couple of rosette and stich welds will serve to extend steer tube length so I can use either Campy or Ofmega head sets.

The other Equipe frame (mystery frame) comes with a steer tube length correct for almost any head set.

John

Here is something of an update to my issues with the Mystery Frame, namely, the seat post binder lug. It just isn't Cinelli or so I thought. Here is a Velobase component catalog for Cinelli and they clearly had many iterations of lugs, including the one on my mystery frame. So why wouldn't Cinelli use these different lugs on Cinelli made frames? Why would they have to necessarily be on other manufacturer frames? http://www.velobase.com/Resource_Too...alogScans.aspx The more I investigate this frame, the more Cinelli it becomes.

John

I'll add my 2 cents on the premier rear mech...great kit. Mine on my red Equipe below, runs like a Shimano DA 7400 series...which is to say like butter.

[IMG]http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1147/3...bc608eed8e.jpg[/IMG]

Hell, now I gotta post the full pic:

[IMG]http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3388/3...5e33e0fce8.jpg[/IMG]

And my avatar seatcluster shot:

[IMG]http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3253/3...6676e4ba87.jpg[/IMG]

And yet another...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Cine...item2318292f94

After seeing the steer tube on this most recent frame, I think this one and mine are Centurion Equipe. That blue is rare and unique to at least two other US Equipe's. This is the first time I have seen that blue on what may be considered a European Equipe.

For a long time, people thought I was nuts when I mentioned a blue one with the seat stay pantos turned sideways to the pantos on the silver models. Then a black one shows up with the "Project" decals consistent with the outlines on your head tube. You, valentinodel, and afilado seem to have the "variants" to the "mainstream" Equipes. There have also been two or three of the blue ones on eBay over the years.

By the end of this month, I'll have a nice head-head comparison going of the 85 Equipe vs. the 89 Supercorsa, ride-wise.
They will have similar groupsets and similar wheels, so I should get some decent ride feedback.

I have a hunch what the results will be, but don't want to prejudge.

I can't imagine the blue or the grey/black models being that much different, if any.

Once I get the SC out of the way, and a certain sport-tourer makeover, I'd be ready for yours, if you still wanted.

That's a big 10-4, Robbie. I have a group very similar to that of Julian's if you want to use it.

You are correct, Robbie, my unpainted "mystery" frame has the Cinelli seat stay panto turned sideways to the ones on my silver Equipe. I never noticed this until you mentioned it. At least in my mind, this frame is one of the Centurion Cinelli Project frames. Head tube decal for the "project" bike is unique and still visible (decal outline) on my frame.

John

Thanks for the show, John.

Yeah, I noticed the variation in seat stay panto orientation. Also, the "sliced" cap surface on the seat stay of the Ebay frame is probably 1/2 the length of mine.

Best,

Julian

Who did the paint? So nice you could almost eat it.

John

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=238100http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=238099http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=238098http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=238097http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=238096http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=238095http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=238094http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=238093http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/h...205/photo9.jpg

Here is an update for the frame considered to be a European Centurion Cinelli Equipe (the rusty looking one above). It was sand blasted, primed and gold base coat applied awaiting candy red pearl top coats. The frame restoration is turning out magnificently but sadly, frame chrome has been sanded or otherwise abraded off. Even the dropout chrome was removed. The bright side is that fork chrome is very nice and should look good against a candy red pearl painted frame.

Sorry, Robbie but I couldn't help but start the restoration on this frame.

John

This has always been my favorite bike I have ever seen on BF!

I also have a mystery frame with a Cinelli BB shell and Cinelli brake bridge... but it's not a cinelli, that's for sure !

One thing overlooked when dealing with these"mystery" frames is paying close attention to how they were made. If you look at any Japanese high-end handmade frame, you will quickly see another level of refinement in fit and finish. Just take a look inside the bottom bracket to see what I mean. Contrast Italian handmade frames to Japanese and you will instantly see the difference. My "mystery" frame was definitely made in Italy or should I say, not made in Japan. So, is a Cinelli not a Cinelli because it was made for a Japanese resell customer? One must also remember that Cinelli and many other big name Italian frame builders farmed out quite a bit of work that the works shop could not handle. Are these outsourced frames not Cinelli, De Rosa, Colnago, etc.? You decide for yourself.


John

The gold frame above has no fewer than six Cinelli embossed logos; BB, two stay caps, two on the fork lug and one rear brake bridge. BTW, how are you certain your frame was not made by Cinelli?

I often wonder how all that went together, and if anyone really kept track of it all.

The lugs were, of course, sold for use on any frame, including the BB shell, and in many variants. I guess this would include the fork crowns.

Then, there are the panto stamps such as those found on the seat stay caps and the brake bridge, and I wonder how those were "approved."

Decals and logos, like other Italan frames, are all over the place. I think some Mondonico's have the brand in 10 places on the frame/fork. The "current" SC has 9 flying C logos, either standing alone or incorporated into the modern "Cinelli."

It's all cool, and the frames are really nice.

BTW, a teaser. Not yet ready for public critique.

Rob, is that your bro-in-law's frame? That is about as nice as it gets and looks to be close to completion.

John