I have this frame that was advertised and sold as a Centurion Equipe. When it arrived, it looked like an Equipe and definitely has Cinelli embossed on the top of both rear stays, rear stay brake bridge and fork crown. But the only thing on the frame that resembles an Equipe is the unique seat post lug. But even this lug is not quite the same as an Equipe.

I have attached several images comparing a real Equipe to this other "Equipe" frame. I hope there is a Cinelli expert here to help ID what I have.

John

Not a Cinelli.

Mudboy, how do you explain the cast in Cinelli logos on seat stays and rear brake bridge?

Cinelli would sell their parts to frame builders. The parts are Cinelli but it doesn't mean the frame was made by Cinelli.

I have seen Cinelli bb shells used on many other frames but never so many signature Cinelli logo lug and bridge castings on non-Cinelli frames. I guess it could happen but have you ever seen a non-Cinelli frame with so much Cinelli ID except the Centurion Equipe?

There are a couple of others besides the Equipe. I don't recall anything more. I know it has been discussed a few times on the forum.

I heard that there were detailed BF discussions but have no idea how to search these forums to find those discussions. I have been in contact with a few people involved but mostly to do with the Equipe. I think everyone had a little different take on what was and was not a true Cinelli. It all seems a little funny when you consider many of the top Italian frame builders, Cinelli included, used contract houses to fill orders. Are these contract frames any less a Cinelli? I guess not so long as they are sold through Cinelli. All pretty mysterious, even a little silly when you think about it.

The Lotus Record was another "Cinelli Project" bike. I can only find images of one using Google, and it doesn't match your frame exactly.

The catalog listed the Equipe as the Cinelli Centurion Equipe. The project was 3 years in the making, and began well after Cino Cinelli sold the business to the Columbo family. Centurion's Alan Goldsmith worked out the deal directly with Cino Cinelli. The frames were made in one batch and shipped in one shipment. They were designed and made under Cinelli's supervision in Milan.

About that same time, there appeared some blue frames, at least 2 or 3, with the same Cinelli logos on the brake bridge and seat stays. The lugs appear to be the same, but none were chromed. The fork was an internally lugged Cinelli fork, same as that on Cinelli's SC, while the Equipe had an externally lugged fork.. Other differences were very minor. The frame had the fork in common with the SC, and apparently lugs in common with the Equipe. Your unpainted frame certainly appears consistent with the blue ones I've seen.

I've never seen a blue one with any decals. When you think about it, they certainly couldn't be sold as Cinelli's from the same folks making the SC. They also couldn't be sold as Equipe's. I'm familiar enough with them and the Equipe to believe the blue ones were made in the same place as the Equipe. I doubt there was an official agreement covering them with anyone. Some were made and ended up here, and I can't think of any other line of frames that bore the Cinelli logos like that. I can understand bb shells, and lugs from the open market, but the stamped logos just don't seem like any kind of open market item or process.

It is a good frame no matter what. It could be a frame made with left over parts, lots of places do that. Do you see any serial numbers? Is the seat tube lug stamped? Thats the way it looks in the picture. Look at the fork for a date stamp. Could be an earlier frame, 80'. Could be a custom frame.

Robbie:

You gave additional detail for those blue frames I have not heard about. This frame has diamond appointments on water bottle lugs, rear brake bridge and lower stay support. Also, lugs themselves have longer points than the Equipe but similar to Cinelli's SC and would suggest an older frame in the 60' or early 70's. Even the upper seat post lug is slightly different form the Equipe but looks close. I like the frame so whichever way it goes, it will get a good paint job and component group. All this agonizing over identification is mostly to get the decals ball park correct.

Alan, the only identification other than those five stamped Cinelli logos, is a 58 with the number 1 stamped under it on the bb shell. I expect the 58 is frame size and number 1 to be the first in a series.

ggl205

Since you are not doing anything with that maroon frameset off to the side and clearly have too many projects, I can come by and give you what you paid for it later today. I'm even somewhat in your area. [

kidding, yet serious too.

Matt

PS. What is the lavender one? Don't tell me you have a Cinelli Lotus too?

Hi Matt:

Today is move #2 of 4. Packing a 26' Uhaul truck and heading for Wichita tomorrow. You are welcome to stop by and help pack if you like (LOL)?

That lavender frame is an Opus III. I have all the components but short on time to complete. After everything is moved to Wichita (july 2012), I can get back on these bikes again. In the mean time, I continue to look for frames and parts.

John

I'm sometimes absent minded when packing boxes. If you want some help, I cannot guarantee that everything will show up in Wichita, such as a few nice framesets that you have been showing me lately.

Seriously though, if you do want some help with the move today, I would be happy to oblige. Steph works today until 4, so I am just sitting around with the pets and wasting time on the computer. You have my email address and may still have my phone number.

Matt

BTW, I forgot to mention that the Schwinn you mentioned before is pretty nice. Good luck with that and keep us updated.

Sorry for my terse response. As iab stated, Cinelli also sold (mostly cast) frame components, especially when builders were moving to cast lugs, shells, etc. The frame you have certainly looks like a nice one, but having owned two Cinelli's in the past, I can tell you that the new frame is not a Cinelli.

Pete

Mudboy, don't give it a second thought. No harm, no foul. I didn't think this frame was a true blooded Cinelli but the factory did have at least two different top seat post lugs. One where the post pinch bolt went through the rear stay caps and later, through a boss at the end of stay caps. Not being a Cinelli expert, I wasn't sure if maybe there was a third pinch bolt arrangement (like mine) I wasn't aware of.

Also, I am not familiar with the Lotus Cinelli. Does that frame have the same embossed Cinelli logos like my frame does? RobbieTunes says maybe not and I would have to agree. Why would Cinelli allow another maker use thier logo unless it was a true Cinelli? Anyway, there now seems to be a third possibility and that is the ultra mysterious "Blue" Equipe that has been near impossible to tie down factually. I love a good mystery.

John

.....the rarest one of all....

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ICS?highlight=



J

Julian:

I was hoping you would post a picture of your beautiful blue Equipe. Two questions; is the FD a braze on or clamp on and are the water bottle bolt lugs round or diamond shaped?

John

John:

The FD is braze-on, the bottle hole lugs are round.

Nice frame BTW, Good luck on your move.

J

Crap. How many Cinellis/Equipes do you have?

I couldn't resist. norskagent sold me some Campy wheels that match....

Man, I'd love to ride that bike.

Robbie, there are times that I think I'd be better of shipping off my projects to you.

....and let you do the build.

Awesome, my friend.

Kind words there, gratitutde here...
I hope to be in Edina next summer for a day or two. Perhaps it can be arranged....

ggl205, you can send me either one of those...would love a crack at 'em.

Take your pick, Robbie.

John

Let me get my Turbo and SC out of the way, and I'd love to take a crack at the mystery frame.
As long as you like red.