Now I know everyone claims the current Brooks saddles are not of the same quality as the ones produced in the 70's, but my question is, has the design changed as well? I've been looking for a new Brooks and have not made a decision as to which model, but i've been doing a lot of research.

When I compare the Brooks Pro of 70's vintage it looks to have a different shape than the ones produced today. Is this just my imagination?

Are you comparing a NOS 70's Brooks to the same current model? I have two early 80's Team Pro saddles and both look quite different from each other as one seems to have thicker material then the other. I also have a narrow B17 Imperial that I bought brand new this year and I have no issues with the build quality. My wife also bought a new Brooks B67 and compared to her old one it's looks like a completely different saddle.

First of all, not everyone makes that claim. I know I have made that claim, a few other people have made a similar one, and many more have rejected it. And frankly I'm not sure I'm right; maybe I just had bad luck with two saddles.

Second, it is really hard to compare the shape of a new saddle with that of an old one, if the old one has been ridden. They change shape when ridden.

All that said, there have been a whole lot of models, sometimes different versions of the same model offered at the same time, sometimes different versions of the same model offered at different times, and I am pretty sure the same version of the same model can change over time. I have four (I think) B17's ranging in date from ca 1950, 1959, 1967, and 2007?, and they are all different; and I've seen photos of quite a few others that are different still. The widest range of variability I've seen was is in the B15 line. You can easily find more differences between two B15's, or two B17's, than between a B15 and a B17, depending of course on which ones you pick. Bottom line, the more I learn about Brooks saddles, the less I know.

Sorry I couldn't help!

Only heresay from me, Capecodder. A few here have bemoaned the quality of the modern saddles. I did have one B 17 several years ago that wasn't symmetrical, side to side, which caused me trouble. Then again, I bought a fairly modern green B 17 a while ago and it seems fine. As for the Pros, I can't add any valuable info. Both of mine are vintage and I've never tried a newer one. I tend to think the older stuff was made better than new stuff, in many arenas. But I have no proof of that when it comes to Brooks saddles.

I note on some of the professionals the leather on the nose is cut square, and exposes the adjustment plate. On others, the leather is cut round, and covers the adjusting plate. Are these different models, years or just what the builder felt like doing at the time? Also, some look much wider than others.

Yes, I have noticed the same thing about the nose. I have two professionals at the moment, both from the 60's I think, that are remarkably different around the nose. Aside from that, the metal BROOKS badge on the back is different, the rivets are different, and the shape is different. The later? one is narrower across the middle; that is, it's shaped more like a Y than a V. This difference is only in the leather, though; they appear to be on the same frame.

Incidentally, that brings up an interesting point, about the frames. I have Wrights saddles in two different models, a W3N and a W3SW, that look very different from above but are clearly built on the very same frame. But all the Brooks B17's I have are on different frames. For example the 1950? is black and has bag loops; the 1959 is chromed and has no bag loops; the 1967 is black and has no bag loops; and the 2008? is chromed and has bag loops. And it's wider; I suspect the other three are all "narrow"s. A B15 of uncertain date appears to have exactly the same frame as the 1959 B17.

Yikes.... Now this is what I was talking about!!!!! They seems to be many differences between them. When some say they are rock hard and not comfortable, which one do they have, or does it not matter? I'm more confused now then before......... I thought it was just me, but I guess not.

Right. B17's have a reputation to be made of thinner leather than Professionals, so tend to be/get softer; but Brooks literature makes no mention of this that I've seen. From my own (pretty limited) experience working with leather, the way the leather was treated at the factory could account for a difference in hardness as well. But again Brooks literature makes no reference to differences in the leather between the two. There is a pre-softened leather option, which is, I presume, the result of a different process. That is, I doubt the saddle has been softened, but rather it was never made as hard.

What is certain is that use changes leather, so different use will result in different leather. Proofide, sweat, dew, sun, rain, and riding will all make a difference one way or another, and (unless you witnessed all these things yourself) in the end all you know is how the saddle turned out.

I have a data point: I have a 1966 Raleigh DL-1 Tourist that came with what I believe to be the original B72 saddle. The leather tore, so I replaced it with a new B72. There are several obvious design changes. The new saddle has
. slightly shorter and narrower dimensions
. rails are black instead of chrome
. single piece of leather (the old one had construction consisting of two pieces of leather: The top piece is the traditional, skirted, saddle top. The bottom piece is a structural doubler of approximately the same shape of the top piece with the skirts removed)

I think the last difference is why older Brooks saddles are so durable. Besides the top leather, there is a second piece of leather underneath to help bear the load.

I think one of peculiarities in Brooks saddles is that they are basically hand made. This will almost certainly insure each one can be unique (if only on the smallest of scales) from every other Brooks in the same model. Personally, I do not see any difference in quality between the Professionals I have had or still have, from a late 60s model, to '70s, '90s, to the Alpe D'Huez which recently arrived.

Now different models of Brooks have less hand crafting than others, which allows a small steel rivet B17 standard to be less expensive than a hand hammered, large copper rivet special edition racing green B17 with copper rails. The other variable are cow hides. Hides are graded and a more costly hide used on a Professionals different from a lower grade hide used on a B17 Standard.

Let's not forget that Brooks England is a division of Selle Italia, and the bottom line is they need to be a profitable business. Selling lots of affordable B17s makes it possible to offer other saddles of a significantly better quality. A corollary might be how Ford sells significantly more entry level Focus models than they do top of the line Lincolns.

Doohickie, do you still have that old B72? I'm still looking for more saddles to put new leather on.

I traded a few emails with Bill Laine from Wallingford bikes about this issue.
he stated that Brooks informed him there was no difference in the
thickness of the leather between a B17 and a Pro.
that said they did say that the Pro's used a 'select' hide and
that far fewer saddles could be made from it.

Marty

Do all three bullet points refer to the old saddle? I can tell from the bolded statement that the last one does.

Marty raises a number of interesting points.

I got a big piece of leather from which to make saddles as I learn to recover them myself. It cost me $130 plus shipping &c. It varies in thickness, and there pretty much countless ways I could cut it up into a maximum of about a dozen saddle blanks. Presumably some parts of it are better for making saddles than other parts, and to make the best saddles one would have to know exactly where and how to cut each piece. The thickest pieces are not necessarily the best pieces. Some pieces may be too thick, in which case they may be shaved down to the ideal thickness. The people at Brooks presumably have the expertise to do this, and they charge you for it (as they should). Whether the people making all the "off-brand" saddles have this expertise, I can't guess. As for me, well, I'm learning.

Many threads on this topic. What it comes down to is cows being slaughtered earlier in life now, so the thicker leather costs more. When only a double shoulder (right behind the neck) is thick as the average cut years ago, it's no longer economical to make them so thick. The hide varies a great deal in thickness, even in the same cut-area. Certain Brooks saddles are still this thick - they have a vintage series, and generally all the Pro / higher end saddles are thicker leather. Additionally, the rails and support are no longer forged, but stamped. I do love me a vintage Brooks.

^^^
I've also read that the orientation of the saddle blank on the hide isn't irrelevant. Something about the grain of the leather and cutting the blank so it will stretch the right way, and not stretch the wrong way. Technically speaking, of course.

Actually, yes I do. It's still intact except the skirts are cut off the sides. I tried it on my single speed,



but didn't like it. We probably need to talk....

^oh, good. Don't throw it out. I'm going to be working on a couple B72's soon, and if the results are satisfactory I'll try to post a photo or two.

Old: Longer, wider; new: shorter, narrower
Old: Chrome rails; new: black
Old: 2 pieces, nice upper with structural doubler underneath; new: 1 piece- just the upper.

Sorry, I worded that poorly.

I'd guess a Pro with small rivets and a round nose was a standard Pro, and one with big rivets and a square nose was a Team Pro. At some point for awhile Pros started going with big rivets standard.

and then of course there was the "pre-softened" Team Pro, and the presumably un-pre-softened Team Pro.

Actually it's Selle Royal that owns Brooks now.

Thanks for that clarification. I wondered if I was wrong on that.

has someone told the Brooks employees?
a photo tour is here

I don't see any difference in the quality. As far as other differences, I think the new sprung saddles have much stiffer springs. Leather thickness--there's always been some variation, years ago as well as now.