753proguy

Fetchez les vaches!
Quoi?
Fetchez les vaches!

(Sorry, just had a visual of that scene from your post). Merci.

753proguy

Again, I'll repeat:
Waterford makes the TIG'ed 'price-point' Boulder Bicycle framesets.
Yip makes the $2000 lugged ones.
Mark Nobilette makes the stunning Herse framesets and racks.

As the French chefs say: big diff-frahnce.

JAG410 

Oh yeah I forgot about that little tidbit. My attempt at a funny failed. Excuse-a-mwah

gomango

I'd take the Waterford in a minute.

Price is very fair, and will be a delightful workhorse if asked to do so.

In fact, my wife would like one for her all around ride.

I think I may oblige.

753proguy

The Waterford-built one is certainly the lowest-cost solution if you don't require anything that is non-stock.....

Six jours

Folks claiming that it's not a Herse if Rene didn't build it should consider that most of the "originals" were built by Jean Desbois. So apparently we need to determine what the serial numbers were in the 1940s when Desbois took over the framebuilding, so we can exclude those bikes from the true "Herses".

Or maybe the name on the frame doesn't actually have to be the name of the framebuilder, but rather should be viewed as a representation of the framebuilder's ethos.

RosyRambler

From reading Jan's blogs it seems that Lyli Herse is pleased that her father's bicycles (sort of) will continue on, as she expressed some sadness at not having children to pass the business on to. She and Jan seem to have developed a solid relationship over the years. Maybe she thinks of Jan as the son she never had (and I'm not joking here and hope there won't be any snarky responses).

My impression of Jan is that if he is anything, he's a never say die perfectionist at whatever he does. He seems extremely passionate about Rene Herse's vision of bicycles and has taken on a huge task. All that mumbo-jumbo of buying the name or the business, or licensing the name if beyond my comprehension. But if it had to be anyone who carried on the RH legacy, I think JH is the guy to do it. I appreciate his honest, straight forward style of journalism and way of doing things, without a lot of flashy BS, like almost every other cycling related publication and business.

On another note, read the Winter 2010 issue of Bicycle Quarterly with Jean Desbois' obituary in it. He worked for Rene Herse in the 1940s, left in the early '50s and went back to work for RH in 1975. Monsieur Herse died in 1976 and Jean married Lyli Herse. The 2 of them continued to run the shop, with Desbois building frames. In the early '80s, feeling the bikes needed to keep up with current times, Desbois used Italian style lugs, less fork rake, different fork crowns, and changed the classic RH stem to his own design. Because of health reasons, Lyli and Jean closed the Rene Herse shop in 1984, but Jean continued to build bikes at his home workshop to fulfill their remaining orders.

To quote the first paragraph of the obituary (I hope this is legal here since I am referencing Jan's authorship of it) :

"Jean Marie-Joseph Desbois made many of the finest Rene Herse frames and components as the chief framebuilder for Rene Herse during the 1940s and '50s, as well as the late 1970s and 1980s."

If Desbois kept making complete bikes under the Rene Herse name after RH died, and in the '80s made somewhat drastic changes to RH's unique vision/version of a custom bike.....could they still be considered Rene Herse bikes?

In the end, I think it's purely a matter of opinion and what one chooses to believe. If JH and company turn out bikes with the same quality and professionalism as his other cycling related products, I think they will be damn fine bikes no matter the name on the down tube. I appreciate the contributions he's made in today's cycling culture.

Oh, and one last thing.....Weigle. He's 'da man!!

LOL! 6 Days, you beat me by 2 minutes. Is there a strange glow in the night sky where you are? Talk about like minds....

Road Fan

Actually if you speak to Mike Kone, you'll find that builders in addition to YipSan will be considered for the lugged or custom lugged ones. But they are all Boulders because Mike's company produces them under their method. This includes frame design by Mike Kone.

Road Fan

Considering the dearth of constructeurs in the Northlands, I'd LOVE to be able to drive to Toronto and get a Mariposa! Fattic and Assenmacher are barely building, Boi doesn't do rando as far as I can tell, Kvale is too far, as are the other Minnesota and Montana guys.

And Michigan has few builders. I just got the new BQ and need to study what Jan reports on Herbie Helms in SW Michigan.

He may be a possibility, as is Dave Wages out in Waterford, WI.

john hawrylak

I reviewed the Boulder Bicycles site and the line between the RH and the Boulder models seems clearly drawn. Kone states the Boulder model is functionally just as good as a RH,and with Waterford making the Boulder frames, it is hard to see any problems with the Boulder model. The site discusses the need for a high volume, high quality builder and how Waterford fits the need.

As far as Jan and the components are concerned, I see 2 problems:
How can he justify the cost of a RH component. His 50.4 BCD crank is twice the price of the VO 50.4 BCD, and both are made in Taiwan.
How can he be object in BQ when he is an active supplier?? Peterson did it with the Reader, but the preaching or the "holier than thou' attitude was totally missing.

Jan's blog was nicely written, providing a nice story.

john hawrylak

Who's MR Yip???

bbattle

Yes, the U.S. Masis were better bikes.

753proguy

That's nice, but we're not talking about the future. Currently, YipSan makes them, as stated.

753proguy

Agreed. I would just note, however, that Jan hasn't been (and isn't currently) building or even overseeing the build of Rene Herse framesets / bikes. He's on the component side of it (which I think will be a very tough row to hoe, indeed, financially, but I certainly admire him for doing it).

753proguy

In what way, specifically? I'm curious....

bbattle

If they continue to crank out nice bicycles, that's all I care about. Name-schmame. Did Henry Ford make a single car himself? Is Mr. Trek in there brazing away? When the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, was it over?

bbattle

Better lugs, better designs, better paint by a long shot. And the decals didn't fall off if a butterfly floated nearby.

Have you seen the All-Star line-up of builders they had back then?

753proguy

Yes to being aware of the builders in the Cali-Masi Mafia (was Mario no good? go look at some circa 1972 "V" Masis...), and I would agree that the QC was better, but there is a lot more than that involved in determining "goodness."

753proguy

Where's Bluto when we need him (RIP) ?

repechage

Jan will have to come to terms with those issues in print at some point, either by editorial or by content. I agree that it will be held up to him if his quarterly newsletter does not hold to high editorial standards. But then, Newscorp's "firewall" is pretty thin too.

repechage

The V designation is a vicious rumor propagated by Mario zealots most likely as Alberto has advised that alternate stamps indicate a customer code... paraphrasing here.

Forget the evidence that the V bikes consistently show stellar workmanship.

iab

I'm glad you caught that. I was disappointed when recently no one got my "... I extend to you this laurel, and hearty handshake." reference.

753proguy

Yep. We can also ignore what Brian Baylis will say when he looks a 'V' bike over and explains whose hand did this detail, that detail, and so on. Brian certainly can't know much about Masi or Mario, right...?

Road Fan

I think that Rene Herse is a brand as well as a vision of riding, a vision of design, and a set of techniques for how to produce a bike that delivers the Herse riding experience. And even when Rene was alive and in leadership, and yes, even when he was building frames if he ever did, it was a brand. Mr. Herse cannot be bought. But the right to realize and commercialize his unique product and knowledge of how to implement it can be sold, and may still lead to products that cyclists want to buy.

Chances are the knowledge needs to be used to be kept alive. Mme Herse has a stake in who has the priveledge of intending to do so, and apparently felt that Mike Kone and his enterprise were worthy and capable. I don't really know why Mike wanted to sell, but I think Jan understands the Herse vision and product, and has taken big steps in reverse-engineering the products. He's not a framebuilder, but he can employ great framebuilders. After all, that's what Mike Kone did and what M. Herse did, by employing M. Desbois. Ask any modern fremebuilder owner/operator how easy it is to do it all, and you'll get a modern lesson on division of labor.

I don't see a problem here. I see a good chance that the Rene Herse leadership in randonneuse design and construction will live on and even evolve. Dead companies, unfortunately, represent lost knowledge and achievement. If the people are gone and the paper has been shredded, it's really dead. Rene Herse is not.

rootboy 

I certainly see what you mean Road Fan, and can appreciate the argument. And I also understand that Rene Herse or Alex Singer didn't personally make every frame that came out of their shops. But, the frames came out of their shops and were made under their supervision. Or, were made by someone who had worked with them, as in the case of Singer, I believe. The level of knowledge directly gleaned from or passed down from Rene Herse is in question in this case. As far as I'm concerned, Rene Herse cycles, as a company, is dead. The people are gone but the historical record remains. But his knowledge, achievement and contributions will never die, as long as there are examples of his work still extant. His work. Not someone else's. To me, when a man puts his name on a hand made product, it's more than just a brand. It's a tough philosophy to justify, given that we are surrounded by brand names of all sorts. It's just what I believe.