Taking chances and expensive lessons.
 

Well as they say I "shudda known better" but my "want" over balanced my "good common sense" if I ever had any. But several weeks ago a fully drilled 70s vintage Campy NR Groupo showed up on Ebay. The seller had a very good rating and only one negative feedback (another one showed up after I won the bid). It was stated to be in VERY GOOD CONDITION. Assuming that to mean "Good Usable" condition I bid and won.

Well, the parts came today. OUCH.......!!!!!!!!!! A short list of the worst items is as follows. The 3TTT stem had some serious damage (not shipping) the bars and left brake lever has some ugly cosmetic issues. Almost everything that was plated had rust and a lot of it is NOT surface rust. The plating has pealed off the bottom bracket. The rear derailleur has some cosmetic crash damage. The nuts on the headset has some ugly wrench damage (wrong wrench or ham fisted mechanic). The pedals were abysmal. About the only thing that can be said is that most of the parts are servicable and that about all.

Complaint has been sent. We shall see.

Good luck. Terrible sinking feeling when that happens.

That's a tough one. I barely trust VERY good pics on ebay and for sure, one man's opinion of what constitutes "very good" condition is purely subjective of course. It's a shame you can't trust some ebay sellers but, that's life. Good luck.

Well, I knew there was a risk going in so there's nobody to blame but me. But like i said, if I'm stuck with it at least some of it is servicable and the only two shining items are the brakes and the strada crank. Both of those are in pretty good shape and the brakes look great. Will try to post picts after dinner.

i hope you're able to keep the group, salvage most of it, and receive a credit on the purchase. most of it sounds cosmetic, which can possibly be repaired with some elbow grease, a file, wet-sanding and mother's polish. i've had great success doing this with almost all components. bars, stems, hubs, levers, and seatposts are the easiest to recover. more difficult are pedals and rear derailleurs. you can even use paint to liven pedal brackets, fluted parts, and dust caps to a newer condition. good luck to you.

VGC should be nearly flawless. No crash damage, perfect threads and minimal use markings. I use that phrase sparingly when listing items. Hopefully it was an oversight and will be resolved quickly.

VGC to me will show signs of use....but no damage. What is "use" and what is "damage" might be debatable to some though....
Try to give it a "once over" cleaning to see how bad it really is before deciding whether to return it. Maybe the seller can also offer a partial refund instead.....

Chombi

Well, you are a buyer, which means that 1) he does the sensible thing, issues you a refund, and pays for return shipping or 2) he will have to deal with a formal complaint through ebay where you will come out on top.

Yeah, just did an AD Olympian that required loads of elbo grease but it looks great. So i understand. In this case the Stem is beyond repair for anything other than a beater, and so probably are the pedals. Will include pict with the others.

Nevertheless, thanks for the encouragment. Besides I have plenty of other things i can spend my time worrying about. LOL

Chombi brings up a very good point. What does "Good" or "Very Good" mean to me or to you. Here is what I got for the description from the seller of "Very Good" (there are several picts so I will post in two entries).

The first two are the 3TTT stem.
http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/a.../UpperStem.jpg

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/a.../LowerStem.jpg

The left brake lever.
http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/a...BrakeLever.jpg

The pedals.
http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/a...les/Pedals.jpg

Bottom Bracket (notice missing chrome plating).
http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/a...tomBracket.jpg

Here are the rest of the picts from the parts I received.

Headset parts. A little bunged up.
http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/Headset2.jpg

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/Headset1.jpg

Note the abraded flat spots on the near side pivot points.
http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/a...Derailleur.jpg

Rear Squewer.
http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/a...es/Squewer.jpg

But here is one of the treasons I bid on the set.
http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/a...les/Brake1.jpg

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/a...les/Break2.jpg

ummmm...were there no pictures in the original listing???

Quite a few actually but none that reveal any of what these pictures show.

Is this the auction?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-N...p2047675.l2557

Pics look a little rough in the listing... but there were 46 bids, so you weren't the only one

Pars, thanks for posting that. Was just going to eBay to look that up when I thought I'd see if anyone else on the forum had any thoughts.

Frankly didn't think it looked that bad which is the reason I bid. I could certainly have dealt with some of the issues but there was just too much to overlook ie. the bottom bracket, stem, headset and derailleur were the primary issues plus the freewheel was not campy.

There is just no way to build a quality project without replacing a good bit of this stuff.

Thanks again for posting that. I really do want other opinions, it could be a good education for us all.

Wuff

Yeah, sorry :)

That certainly isn't VGC... fair would be more like it. Did you pay using Paypal? File a complaint with them also.

The listing did state that the freewheel was not Campy, as well as the headset and other items, unless the seller revised the description.

Yeah, after everything else I was just whinging that the freewheel wasn't European instead of Japanese thought it is a Pro Compe 888. And yes, I did pay using Paypal.

I've contacted him with my concerns. If he responds positively I will be more than willing to work something out. I'm not going to be completely inflexible on this.

Pars- Seller cannot revise the description once a single bid is placed.

one half wuff- I feel you, I've bought some things after taking only a quick glance and had to go back and recheck the listing once I received the items in much worse shape than I remembered. To be totally honest, I'm not sure who to side with in this particular case. To me, the parts all look pretty rough in the pictures, regardless of what wordage the (foreign) seller used to describe them. Like Pars said, I'd have called them FAIR condition at best. Most of the flaws you posted pictures of are depicted though. The poor lighting doesn't help either.

The pedals, brake levers and calipers, bottom bracket were all obviously in "fair" shape, it wouldn't be right to call the seller out on those in my opinion. The headset, although having some tool marks, doesn't appear to be completely mangled, I see plenty of that on most headsets. In regards to the RD, the "damage" doesn't look catastrophic and I'd venture to guess that it works just fine. He doesn't say the FW is Campagnolo and you can clearly read "MAEDA INDUSTRIES Japan" on the lock ring.

The seller should have chosen his words more wisely, I would imagine 99% of C&V wouldn't use the words "very good condition" to describe this group. But then again, you say the cranks are one of two "shining items" of the lot when I'd consider those cranks to be in pretty rough, well used condition (tons of toe strap rub, no anodizing left in those areas).

Shnibop: I appreciate your candor and asked for others input. Though I may disagree since I am the one holding the "bag" on this deal I thank you nonetheless. Certainly the "poor lighting" does work in his favor. With the exception of the pedals the pictures I posted tell a completely different story than the pictures in the eBay posting.

As I look at the bottom bracket while typing this I am struggling even with a "fair" classification for that item, the stem, levers and a few other other components that make up a good portion of this package. And yes, compared to the items I have just described the crank was a bright spot.


I would like to leave you with this question; would you put those components on your own bike or in good conscious would you put them on one you were building and tell the owner they were "very good" or even "good". Would he or you accept them as "good" or "very good?"

Thanks, Wuff

No, I wouldn't use them on a build, and I would classify most of them as rough condition.

I understand you feel duped, I'd feel duped and I'd be pissed. If I were about to spend $500 on a group, I'd take a long hard look at each picture and I'd ask for more (especially in this case as the description and pictures are totally contradicting one another). Although they are dark and not particularly clear, it is clear that the brake levers are dull and scratched, the brake calipers have at least rust specks on most of the hardware, the cranks have a ton of toe strap rub/missing anodizing, the pedal cages are all but shot, the QR lever has a scratch on it (the same one you're complaining about) and they're mismatched, the adjustable side of the bottom bracket looks nasty (although not as nasty as your picture shows)... Obviously a well used and possibly abused group.

My point being, you bought a group that looks slightly worse than what was pictured, and much, much worse than the description let on. However, a picture tells a thousand words and I would have a hard time believing that those components were in "very good condition" based on the pictures. Also, as has been discussed here already, everyone has a different idea of what is poor/fair/good/excellent/mint, so if I'm presented with a series of pictured, I'll go off that. I would never have bid anywhere near what you did based on the pictures.

I'm really curious to see where eBay takes this. Which descriptor are you held to most as a seller? Your pictures or your words. I believe you should get at the very least a partial refund if you were interested in that. The issues with the stem and the headset, and possibly the rear derailleur deserve some compensation.

Good luck!

Another red flag for me, is that I don't trust sellers who don't accept returns. I think he showed what was good and omitted what was bad. I'd have no qualms about opening an item not as described complaint on this sale. If this doesn't merit it, what does?

In my mind, the seller totally misrepresented the state of repair of those components by suggesting that they are in very good condition. My guess is that Ebay will side with the buyer and a full refund will be in order.

Normally, I would give the seller a chance to fix the problem but this seller purposely hid damage and totally missed the target with is evaluation of condition. No one in their right mind would call a banged up, oxidized grouppo very good condition, as far as I am concerned.

Then there is the buyer to consider. He, or she, admits to taking a chance. Why would one do such a thing? If the pictures are not clear, forget it. If the seller is not cooperative, before the sale, forget it.

None the less, I bet that the buyer will get a full refund and Ebay will ensure that that happens. I would like to see how this turns out and I have already marked the seller as a bad bet.

I doubt the seller purposely obfuscated but how can one tell? So many do it on ebay. Thing is, pics showed very little of anything regarding detail, which is a form of obfuscation in my book. So many pics; so little information.
I don't like auctions without verbal descriptions of condition. But everybody's doing it. Leave it up to the pictures! But so few pictures give you the full picture, so to speak.
That rear derailleur is OK.
That BB is atrocious.
mixed bag, OP.
Caveat emptor.

drillium can look so terribly bad at times. those calipers! even a shifter was randomly drilled. horrible.

i'd keep some of that so i wouldn't have to send it all back, and ask for a credit for the rest. i'd also probably offer to pay half the return shipping in a show of good faith.

Cherry pick the best parts and send back the rest? I wouldn't accept that, even if I was an unscrupulous seller.
Send it all back and try again.