Hello everybody

I've also posted this question on the general forum, so here is the original text:

"I'm currently in search for the perfect Brooks for me. I've used a B17 standard for some time, and then replaced it (but never sold it) because it was too wide to get behing it on technical mtb. But after 3 years of plastic saddles I gave up, I need leather!

So I installed back my old B17, this time on a Surly Pugsley, with a 100mm bottom bracket. To my surprise, it is a little easier to get behind it with the wide BB(feet more apart), so technical terrain is now possible. But it would still be nice to move a little easier on the saddle, and I feel that I didn't got a particularly thick saddle, since the leather is little over 4.0mm.
This causes the saddle to sag a little too much. I weight 200lbs unequiped, by the way. So a thicker leather would be good.

I ordered a B17 Narrow to try the different width. When it arrived I was surprised with the leather, really thick at 5.5mm, just what I wanted. I also could move really easly around the saddle, but it was too narrow for me. I was sitting on the metal frame, and feeling generally unsupported. It was sold.

So, what are my options?
The B17 Select has a width that I can live with (but not perfect), and supposedly has a very thick leather. I'm not a big fan of the raw colour, but I see that it darkens over time.
The Team Pro looks like another option. I've read that it has thicker leather than the B17, and is a little narrower than the B17. But will it be too narrow for me? Is the profile of the Team Pro much rounder than the B17?

Thanks in advance"

Like I said there, I know that I'm searching for something a little hard to get. Wide for the sitbones, narrow for the technical descents and thick leather.

Thanks again for any help on this

I'm 240 lbs, I like the Swift on bikes set up for aggressive ridding but the the B17 is tops for all day in the saddle. Likewise, I've found my son's B17N to be...well, too narrow.

Forgive me if I'm missing something here, but aren't "wide" and "narrow" mutually exclusive? It sounds to me like what you want is a standard with B17 with the thickest possible leather.

I don't know how thick the leather on Brooks Select saddles is, nor how wide they are. I understand they are pretty tough, made to last; but have no first-hand experience with them. But that might be the way to go.

I would suggest you don't worry about the color. Natural leather does darken considerably, and the good part is it won't stain your pants.

If you don't find what you want, let me know. I have some awesomely thick leather (6.5 mm) from which I can make a pretty tough saddle.

I'll vouch for Rudi's saddle. And I need to take another picture of it after a season of ridding. The color is darkening and looks great!

So, despite being about the same width, the Swift and the B17N feel that different?

Maybe, that's why I'm looking to the B17 Select.

Any comments on the Team Pro? Sounds like with the thicker leather and slightly narrower width than the B17 it could be a good idea. But the supposedly rounder profile and my previous bad experience with the B17N turns me a little off

If you can find one, try a Brooks B15. They are wider than the B17 and use very heavy leather. I might add that the Brooks B15 is the only Brooks butt perch that did not work well for me. I am a B17 fan. Anyway, the B15...

I don't think that's quite right. I know I've been confused about this for a long time, and I'm not sure I'm over my confusion yet; but here's what I understand now:

B15 and B17 were two distinct quality levels, rather than sizes. B17 was the top of the line, B15 was cheaper. The more expensive saddles had better leather, better rivets, better quality control, etc. At least in theory. That said, I have had a hard time telling them apart. I have a B15 from the 60's that has nice solid copper rivets, and a B17's that had the same not-so-nice semi-tubular steel rivets as B15's.

As for sizes, both B15 and B17 came in two widths, "Competition Standard" and "Champion Narrow." Standard is wider than Narrow.

I have just measured a bunch of Brooks frames. Some are dated, and some still have the leather attached. So here's the length x width of each, followed by the model and date if known, finish, etc. I measured the width across the widest point of the cantle plate, from underneath. This does not include the leather. Note that these are sorted by width, which is the second dimension given.

9.875 x 5.25 (B. 17 Champion Narrow, C 73; chrome, loops with eyelets)
9.5 x 5.5 (Wrights W3N, mid 70's, chrome, loops without eyelets)
9.625 x 5.5 (B.17 Champion Narrow, about 1950; black, loops with eyelets)
9.625 x 5.5 (Wrights W3SW, C64,; chrome, loops without eyelets)
9.75 x 5.5 (B.15 or B.17, mid 70's; chrome, loops with eyelets)
9.75 x 5.5 (B.15 or B.17, mid 70's; chrome, loops with eyelets)
9.75 x 5.5 (Wrights W3SW, maybe 1973?; chrome, loops without eyelets)
9.25 x 5.625 (B.15 S.SR. early 60's?; black, no loops)
9.375 x 5.625 (Professional, 1975; chrome, no loops)
9.375 x 5.625 (B.17 Competition Standard, A 59, chrome, no loops)
9.5 x 5.75 (Professional, maybe 1967?; chrome, no loops)
9.25 x 5.75 (Professional, maybe 1970?; chrome, no loops)
9.0 x 5.75 (Professional, maybe 1980?, chrome, no loops)
9.875 x 6.125 (recent B17 Competition Standard; chrome, loops without eyelets)
9.75 x 6.25 (B.17 Competition Standard, D 76; black, loops without eyelets)
9.75 x 6.5 (B.15 Competition Standard, mid 70's; chrome, loops with eyelets)

Anyway, my point is the length and width vary considerably. I presume there is Brooks literature that would explain all of this, but I have never seen it.

I'm 6' tall and weigh 165 or so. More, according to the scale at my doctor's office; less, according to the one in my bathroom. Anyway, I have not found the width of a saddle to matter much. What really matters is how hard the leather is; if it's soft and stretchy, I can't ride it for more than a few miles.

I can't tell you anything about determining what a saddle will feel like at some point in the future. How hard it is when new tells me nothing about how hard it will be after being ridden some unknown number of miles in unknown weather conditions, treated with an unknown amount of Proofide or other stuff, and so on. But I would advise you: if you like a hard leather saddle, don't ever ride it wet, and don't put too much proofide on it. How much is too much? I don't know, and you won't know until it's too late.

Here is my Professional, it is slightly narrower than my B17 Special, FWIW.

Thanks for all the help.

I'm somewhat tempted to order both the B17 Select and the Team Pro and sell the one that a like the least.

Do you notice that difference a lot while riding?

That's good stuff there rhm! Interestingly enough, I have two saddles sitting in front of me as I'm writing this message. Ons is a Professional with the code B77 stamped on the rail, while the other is a B17 Narrow stamped A77. They frames both appear to have the same dimensions, though without getting a tape measure out, I cannot say for sure.

I see how you measured the width, but how did you get the length? I know you're a guy, so I'm sure you'll use a method that maximizes that measure.

Honestly, I could never really tell the difference between the two ....... other than the B17 Special softened up a bit after a few months. The Professional is much thicker and it hasn't softened up hardly at all, although I'm sure it has shaped a bit to fit my butt. I do ride the bike with the Professional much more than the other. I guess you could say I'm an insensitive ass.

Cheers,

They're not the same size. A B17N is 279mmx151mm and the Swift is smaller at 272mmx150mm. Don't know why but my arse thinks the B17N is too narrow. I think it's more shape than size, in my case.

Yeah, yeah.

Some of these are just frames, or saddles with the leather broken so the nose piece is no longer attached. On these I measured from the front edge of the loop where the nose clip goes to the back of the cantle plate. The others are complete saddles where I can't get that dimension with certainty, but I did my best to measure between the same two places.

Don't you sitbones hit the frame on the Swift?

Well, after much thought, I think I will orde the B17 Select and the Team Pro.
Today I've re-tensioned my B17 and applyed loctite to the bolt. Went on a 40km road ride and it stayed with that tension, a lot better. But it would still be a lot better with thicker and firmer leather

Just picked up a B-15 Champion Standard from a forum member . The 15 is supposed to be an economy model but I've found the leather to be considerabley thicker than the current 17's! On the B15 it's 5.2+ mm and the current B-17 is 4.9+mm. Doesn't sound like much but feels very different! Perhaps the Select or Team Pro are also constructed from a heavier hide?

As for the Swift and sit bone / frame contact, Nope, but it is really so firm I don't think I'd notice but the depressions are comfortably in the small target area of the the saddle.

Hope you find one that fits!

On my B17 the leather is around 4.1mm, so you get the picture....

Regarding leather thickness, I just had a little email chat with Bill Laine from Wallbike, and he said something interesting:
The thicker leather on the Team Pro is somewhat myth, and it's firmness is more related to shape than anything else

I've got a B17N, a B17 (two of them), a B17S, and and a NOS Professional. The B17N is an a$$ hatchet. The b17's and B17S are fantastic. I'm not a gigantic fan of the S, mainly because I like to move forward and back on the saddle, depending on the conditions, and the S is almost comically short. The pro is as long as the B17, and even "pre-softened" I find that it's not comfortable without a chamois, and even then isn't an "all day saddle" for me. I've got child-bearing hips though. If you think the 17 is too wide, I'd suggest the Professional.

The only time I think the B17 is too wide is when I need to get behind it

I've been on b-17 for a LONG time, I moved to a 17 imperal for a while. Same profile so this doesn't matter much.

I tried a B-17N and it did't work at all. A rear end killer, at least for me.
So I tried a B-15 and found that worked very well.

I have a Ti team pro waiting to go on a bike for me to try right now.
On paper, all these saddles would fit the same. B-17N, B-15 and the team pro.
My a$$ tells me that the paper lies! I have no idea why, but it is so.

Like all saddles, no matter what, your rear will let you know. Not some tape mesurement!


Oh yea, I'm a big guy, 260+ these days.

The Brooks Pro suffers from some very short rails as far as adjust-ability goes, I could never get it back far enough on road bikes. It also tries to overcome the big nose problem with more of a hump rise in the middle, you either like it or you don't. I got comfortable with the B17N over time on a commuter, and had one on a 29er. For the first 3 months it felt narrow, then it fell into a sweet spot. Now I can ride the N without a chamois, and I'm a fairly big guy. Personally, I've gone to SMP saddles on my MTBs, but they tend to restrict sliding around, you tend to get planted in one spot while seated ...you might regard this as a negative.

Do you have a B15 Swallow or the older B15 Champion Standard? Curious 'cuz I'm 240lbs and interested in a Swallow but have held off because I remember Brooks stating that the Swallow is the lightest of all their saddles.

Swallow.

Now a point; I have not had this saddle long. Long enough to know it fits,,
but not long enough to know how it will hold up!

I know my fat butt likes it!