props to Barry for taking the time to explain his business and motivations here. i think it takes a lot of maturity and honesty to come to a place that's often unfriendly to him and make his case. and for what it's worth, i think he is right. i, for one, apologize for any **** I may have talked in the past. i may not like his prices but then there's lots of stores in NYC whose prices I don't like and I don't talk **** on them.

Rootboy, i hate to say it, but you are naive if you think some sort of community spirit means that we should give each other deals. I mean here on this forum? Sure, because we are a community. But when you get into the wider world, as exemplified by eBay, the only logical rules for pricing is supply and demand. that's why arguments that say that Barry's pricing drives up the market in general is B.S. what drives up the market is simply what people are willing to pay for an item. if the items were easy to find, then people wouldn't pay a lot for them.

And by the way, I look at thaimtb.com from time to time because Zunows often pop up for sale there at reasonable prices. I've tried to reach out to sellers on there and they won't sell to me. So that's another community of vintage bike fanatics that's entirely unconnected from us. And so on for many other countries. The only market we all share is eBay and there's no buddy-buddy deals there.

in my case, I've come to terms with two things: one, that I recognize that vintage bike and component collecting is not a cheap hobby. especially not if you have tastes like mine. second, I enjoy spending hours daily hunting foreign auction sites and sniping on auctions to get obscure parts as cheap as possible. Barry's business is for people who want rare stuff but don't want to make the kind of effort i do to get it. Hence the premium price.

anyway, this has been very enlightening and i hope Barry doesn't end up deleting all of this. it's changed my mind, so i'd say it was worth the effort. :thumb:

You guys are cool in my book, Were all bike geeks for one reason or a million. we agree to disagree on certain points and it makes me feel good to know that with all of our different outlooks and reasons , we can move past s***. Im glad i chimed in and feel a hell of alot better about contributing what i know (or think I know). And thanks everyone for the kind words and the pvt messages as well.

ciao

:popcorn

I can back you up on this one. There was no such thing as a brand of bicycle components. Everything, everything was local factory stock parts. No campy, hell I didn't see even one shimano anything while I was there. Majority of people there will be very confused if you ask them "what kind of crank do you have"?

On the other hand, bicycle is almost completely regarded as a utility tool in Asia and not as a hobby/trophy item. If it works then all is well. No attention paid to appearance, culture, statement etc etc. As a result, I doubt collectors renders bicycle (components) much value. I would be surprised if they spend more than 50$ on a component...

but hey, you can sell anything for however much you want.

i can't speak for China or Indonesia, but take a look around ThaiMTB.com and you'll see that there is a serious vintage bike scene over there. Fixed gear culture is huge in Taiwan, Singapore, and Hong Kong... and you know that eventually leads to increased interest in vintage bikes and components.

I think I went to great lengths to not say that. Though I probably inferred it. But did admit, a few times, to being a bit naive. I have to disagree about what drives up prices. I think there's pressure from both buyers AND sellers. In the grand scheme of things everything I wrote is bunch of romanticized clap trap and idealism, with a healthy dose of cornball. But I still believe it. ;)

I saw a 2000 Grand Cherokee with 182,000 miles for $8700 online today. I think someone has already started the trend.:lol:,,,,BD

Oh yea I have one of these on my huffy green machine. spring tension is a bit different though.

Oh the pain.....

Excuse me?

i think the crux of pricing argument is American collectors feel that some sellers are unfairly driving the costs up, inflating the market all around and forcing everyone to pay more for vintage components. The sellers say that there are under-served markets outside of the USA that are willing to pay more than American or European buyers, hence the price increases.

Would you suggest that sellers keep their prices down to be "fair" to the American collectors who have traditionally paid less? or should Asian bike collectors have to join and contribute to "our" community in order to be able to buy vintage components?

i mentioned ThaiMTB.com before to point out that at least one segment of the Asian vintage bike scene already has their own community. so if you make the argument that high prices somehow hurt our community, in some sense you're saying that their community is at least partly at fault as well.

Should an enthusiast even have to join and contribute to a community of enthusiasts in order to be able to buy parts? I mean, if I don't want to look for deals or contribute to the conversation, I just want a certain item NOW and I'm willing to pay the price, shouldn't I be allowed to do that?

i'm just trying to point that idealism is fine until you follow it all the way to the conclusion, and then you start to see that it's actually silly at best and discriminatory at worst. we're not a global community but we are a global market, and are thus prices are driven by market dynamics, not social dynamics... and that's probably for the best.

Exactly:lol:

Well, kudos to the guy for his appearance and attitude here. I personally don't have a problem with him or his sales. If folks think his stuff is worth that much they'll buy it. If not, they won't. I've been tempted a few times but I have always waited a bit and gotten essentially the same thing for a whole hell of a lot less.

I do want to note his auction for a 3.5 mm Allen wrench. Asking $20 for a tool widely available for a couple of bucks strikes me as absolute madness - but somebody bought it. I still can't decide what to think about that.

"Would you suggest that sellers keep their prices down to be "fair" to the American collectors who have traditionally paid less? or should Asian bike collectors have to join and contribute to "our" community in order to be able to buy vintage components? "

I'm suggesting neither. I get the whole world market dynamics thing. The market will sort it out, etc. Is this pricing geared toward the top 5% of elite collectors the new "norm"? The realities of the 21st century global market? Perhaps. But I don't see guys like Greg Parker, John Barron, Dale Brown, Mike Kone, Bob Freeman, etc., etc... following suit. There's a reason, I believe. I probably over-stated the whole "community" thing.

I don't believe any seller has any obligation at all to this community of vintage bike enthusiasts as far as how he prices his goods. I see a number of sellers who act as though they do, however. Or maybe they're just being realistic. When I see prices geared only towards the very high end, I think they have the potential to negatively impact the other 95%. So it goes.

To quote Six Jours, "Asking $20 for a tool widely available for a couple of bucks strikes me as absolute madness - but somebody bought it. I still can't decide what to think about that."

The fact that "someone bought it" justifies everything, I suppose. If someone bought it then maybe they ARE worth twenty bucks a piece. And should be sold at that price. Well, I have decided what to think about that. But I'm not losing any sleep over it, despite how it might seem. I've only tried to point out what to me is an unwholesome trend. A personal view, fraught with unrealistic ideals and pie-in-the-sky thinking. And I'll stop now.

As always, what I believe plus four bucks will still get you a cup of coffee down at Starfukkers.

i think that on-demand 3D printing will revolutionize this entire hobby in a couple of years, but that's fodder for a different thread . :)

Ah, Catnap, you've been part of that discussion on the CR list? I couldn't make it all the way through it. Way over my head, most of it. But interesting.

no, i didn't know there was one - is there a link to read somewhere? a friend of mine works for Shapeways.com so I hear a lot about 3D printing from her. they just built a massive printing facility up the street from me in Long Island City.

I'll try to look for it but have a helluva time finding anything older on that list. If I can find a link, will forward.

Much of what you say brings to my mind what the bigger companies in the USA have accomplished by outsourcing much of the previously good paying US based jobs. It's certainly contributed to the inability of the average US worker to pay highly inflated priceing on vintage componants, when the jobs that might have supported such a purchase are now all in asia.

Is there any wonder why most of these vintage parts ship there now?

I spoke to a long time friend of mine in Vicenza who worked at Campagnolo throughout the 80's and after seeing the photos he stated categorically that it was not produced in Campagnolo. He based this statement on the fact that the upper body section was anodized prior to the modification. He stated that Tullio would never have accepted such a piece and to source such parts prior to anodization would have been simple, so there was no need to use an already anodized part. He then stated that it appears that the steel upper body pivot bolt is nothing more than a standard lower body pivot bolt off of a nuovo record derailleur. He said that to fashion such a derailleur is child's play. He lastly said "Ma il venditore non si vergogna di chiedere un prezzo così per un pezzo taroccato?"

So basically pb*bikes is grossly overpricing an altered part and marketing it as some great NOS original rarity for moon money!

With all the time he claims in researching such rare items before offering them for sale, i wonder why an inquiry straight to Campagnolo was not made to clear this item up prior to the offering?

Why am i NOT surprised!

To save you all some time, the Itanian quote above:"Ma il venditore non si vergogna di chiedere un prezzo così per un pezzo taroccato?"'

.....translates out on google to: "But the seller is not ashamed to ask for a price for a piece fake?"

BTW,...it came off sale pricing a few hours ago. Was offered for only $1,125.00 but now back up to the full $1,500.00 You missed the sale of the century!

rootboy, I hope you feel honored to be chewed out on the classicrendezvous mailing list. It's a sign of distinction.

It might be interesting, because there was an conversation in a German bike forum a while ago about strange Campy products too, especially about rear dérailleurs.

An older member, who worked with Campy for a long time, quoted, that it was probably kind of common sense, that campy workers often tried to make some extra money after work. They simply took small parts in their pockets and build some extra dérailleurs at home, maybe for friends, family, whatever/whoever.

He also said that it all makes sense, because dérailleur parts are easy to fit in a trousers pocket, crank sets don't fit in a pocket, seat posts neither.
People who bought this stuff didn't ask for a billing and i guess they also didn't argued about "little variations" like people would tend to who bought it for "official shop prices".

But maybe they had also open ears for interesting mechanical ideas or came up with own ideas how to make an rd more effective.

K.

Good points, humanreisberg. Also, the guy who writes disraeligears points out that the rear derailleur is the most fascinating bike component. It's true, even though its performance is much less than other components.

This is not exactly true, because it isn't a fair market price due to imperfect knowledge.

$20 is the price someone is willing to pay for a Delta brake allen wrench if there are no alternatives. It is not the price someone would pay for a 3.5mm allen wrench when there are alternatives. If everyone knew that delta brakes needed 3.5mm allen wrenches, that 3.5mm allen wrenches are commonly available from various industrial suppliers, and knew for sure that their allen wrench would be compatible with their delta brakes, then it is unlikely people would pay $20.

What people pay $20 for is not the 3.5mm allen wrench, but the knowledge/assurance that it works with their valuable delta brake (which I'm sure many of you would offer as free advice) and the fact that the seller says they're rare and you can't get them at your hardware store, despite the fact that I could go to Harbor Freight, and buy a 13pc set including a 3.5mm for $5.

As a point of reference, 3.5mm allen wrenches, if they are not rare NOS Campagnolo brand parts that you wish to surround yourself with and enjoy their company, are about $0.20 from a normal industrial supplier. So if you use that as the wholesale, you're asking for about a 10,000% markup for your labor. Compare with the normal 100% markup used by most retailers and the 50% markup used by big box companies. Boutique indeed.

The example of the allen wrench in my view is poorly chosen insofar as there are many variables beyond the sole 3.5 mm size. The "Campagnolo" allen wrenches were I believe made by Pastorino to very tight tolerances and are of a particularly high-quality temper, something that you cannot necessarily say about a generic allen wrench. Furthermore because the screw is inlaid, you must also be sure that "reach" of the allen wrench is sufficient for the application. Just like USAG or Snap-On tools cost considerably more than many look-a-likes, the same also holds true with allen wrenches. I would however venture to say that most professional mechanics would not accept a generic tool and would prefer to pay somewhat more to have the added peace of mind of a tested and proven supplier like Sanp-on.