What is your opinion on the current production Herse or Hetchins bicycles? Venerable name only? Does the traditon live on? What do you think?

I don't know enough about Herse to have an opinion.

Hetchins are a fantastic deal compared to other customs...$1,500ish for a new frame. I'd consider it long and hard. They're gaudy, over the top, but I think cool and unique. I hope I get to ride one someday.

Should have asked Herse and Hetchins instead of or. Kinda interested how these recent productions will be viewed in the future, I named the 2 H's because they are venerable names that have been carried on long after the original shop/builder closed, perhaps there are others too. anyway, what's your take on it?

There's also Mercian, and depending on the exchange rate, it's possible to have a complete custom lugged frame made for about $1000.

I know someone with a new Mercian Vincitore, it's very beautiful. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the current production old Brit Marques, and agree they're a bargain compared to a domestic custom. But also be aware that some of these builders are also very traditional in the sense that they won't attempt to do something new or different, or esoteric geometry. They won't take a risk and try something new like a lot of younger, independent builders. They build what they've been building for decades and that's that.

I doubt these new frames will carry the same monetary value over the long haul as compared to a true vintage, if that's what your'e thinking. If it's a bike you plan to keep forever, they're probably a great value, but I also see recent model Brit marques sell for a lot less than their vintage counterparts.

In terms of production techniques, I don't know about most of them but I know that Mercians are still made with lug pinning, hearth brazing... all the old fashioned techniques. So in that sense, the tradition does live on.

The Herse is a different story, because the name was bought by Jan Heine/Compass Bicycles and then either sold or licensed, not sure, to Mike Kone of Boulder Bicycles. Mike's a master builder and builds a truly beautiful frame in true constructeur fashion. Enough so that that's the bike Jan Heine rides.

So, Herse is now a domestically made bike, and will easily cost you a couple of cherished body parts to afford one.

Those new herses remind me of the venetian canal in Las Vegas. I like the bikes mr. Kone builds under the Boulder name a lot better, no famous shoes to fill and they look the part. The mercians are a little different, since they are still produced on the same site with the same tooling (even a little hearth brazing! Talk about Luddites). Plus, they have a very nice modern online customizer and order form. I can see my self ordering one someday.

Mike Kone isn't a builder. The new Herse bikes are built by Mark Nobilette.

...and Boulder bikes by Waterford. Oh, and the chronology is this: Mike Kone bought the rights to the Herse brand from Lyli Herse (Rene's daughter) and started bike "production" (for want of a better word) with Mark N at the torch. Some time later, Jan/Compass bought the rights to the Herse component designs/brand from M Kone, so now there are two Herse entities: one building bikes and one making components.

SP
OC, OR

ps - If I had the money, I'd buy a Herse in a heartbeat. If I had the money for both a Herse and a Hetchins, I'd get the Herse and spend the rest of the money on a nice long vacation in France.

+1. Certainly less tacky. Nice frames. But reproductions nonetheless. Heck, not even that. The only thing comparable between the two is that name
painted on the tubes.

I find the Hetchins a bit too much, but fair play to them for sticking to their guns.

I'm going bespoke later in the year and my choice is a Mercian but it is easier for me as I live in the UK, so can go along to the shop/factory...

We've had this discussion before but I can't think of a more comprehensive turnover of Rene Herse production from Lily Herse to Mike Kone and Jan Heine that did not involve growing Rene Herse's DNA in a petrie dish and creating a clone. And we'd have to borrow Mr Peabody's Way Back Machine so that all current production bikes could race in the Constructeur competitions.

By any definition current production Rene Herse is Rene Herse production just as current Ford automobiles are Fords.

Oh, my bad. Thanks both of you for setting me straight. I'm horrible with names.

It depends on how you define a reproduction. If the descendants of Rene Herse, another generation removed, were still producing Herses today but using modern techniques and keeping up with modern components, would it be a reproduction? Or just evolution of the brand? I don't know that answer to that, and I'm not saying it's not a repro, just that I suppose it's a blurry line between brand evolution and brand dilution. But if a brand transfer of ownership still carries with it a standard and vision which are upheld, I would lean towards calling it brand evolution...

I bought one of the 60th Anniversary Hetchins years ago and its quite a stunning piece. Haven't seen a modern Herse, so I know nothing.

I think Velognome is really getting into the value of nostalgia and asking what is and isn't nostalgia. It's a really good question and interesting to me. I generally don't like modern recreations of classic things for the sake of nostalgia...but with steel bikes, where is that line drawn?

My Marnati is certainly an interesting bike to consider...it's a very traditionally built frame with a tubeset from 1987. Somehow to me...it's not nostalgic. It's just a really well built frame with a tube set that's really well suited to me. Is a new Hetchins nostalgia alone? I'm not sure...sort of, but how much different is 531 from modern steels for most riders? Given it's price, I think they're selling a pretty reasonable product that really stands out. It's not what I would buy, but it's not really all nostalgia either.

I feel the same way about Mercian...except they're more appealing to me. They're making a high quality steel frame at a good price, and I think that's their selling point, not really nostalgia. The Herse seems more like branding to me...if I wanted a Herse type bike, I'd probably consider other folks before them. To me it's just a fancy name owned by a divisive guy that I often disagree with. I'd be more likely to wait for a vintage Herse or buy something like a Weigle.

The bikes I really dislike are the ones styled to look old just for the sake of looking old. I don't really like the "classic" lines from makers like Cinelli...I'd rather have a vintage SC. If I want a new Cinelli, I want cutting edge. Mercian and Hetchins are selling frames built for the rider...to their exact specifications...and there is a lot of value to that beyond nostalgia.

I already have a Hetchins so I would now buy a Hearse

I want to make distinction between a brand, like Mercian, and an artisan's name to sign a masterpiece (I mean that in the original sense of a master builder applying his sig to a product coming out of his shop, even though many steps in the process have been done by apprentices or journeyman builders), like Herse. What mr. Kone and to lesser extent mr. Heine have done is turning a artisan master's name into a brand. I don't like that. If I would ride a modern randonneur build by Mark Nobilette, I'd rather have his name with pride emblazoned on the DT than someone elses name turned into a marketing fib.

By the way, don't you agree that Nobilette is such a ridiculously good name for a bike? Especially for a Faux French randonneur!

I am also going to have to put Mercian in a different catagory. They have not really changed over the past few decades. Their offerings have gotten a tad more modern, but they basically build them as they did 40 years ago, with a handfull of builders. Although they were acquired some time ago by a consortium that bought up Hetchens and some other small Brittish builders, my understanding is that they have been largey left alone. They are traditional, but not the sort that has someone's name (or someone's relative's name) on the tubes.

This is very different than what has happened to Herse and some others where bought and are still being produced by others. I do not wish to diminish Mr. Heine's apparant dedication to the mark; and he has certainly tried to continue the tradition and styling that has been Herse's trademark over the years. However, I cannot help but either put his venture into some sort of "tribute brand / retroduction", or as some sort of high-end version of what has happened to GT/Schwinn/Raleigh and others. Again, I do not wish to criticize as he has done a good job in the setting up the production of fine stuff. Mr. Nobilette is a fine builder. Yet I cannot equate what is being produced today under the Herse name compared to what was being produced 10/20 years ago. It is not the same.

He'll build you one with his name on it, you'll just have to wait. My LBS has one and the lettering doesn't make me think "oooh, I want that."

I think it's pretty clear that Herse would have adapted to what was available. They were still using throwback parts on some bikes to the end of production because their customers wanted it, but there are plenty of examples of Herse bikes that had contemporaneous parts. I would pick current Herse over most of the other bikes in that price range. I would love to have a JP Weigle, but comparing a Herse to a Weigle isn't really fair given the difference in cost and wait times.

I think this misses the mark. Jan Heine reveres the brand, but they are building the kind of bike he wants to ride. I have no idea what Mercian is up to, but I sincerely doubt there is anyone in that company that is in it for anything but commerce. As a framebuilder, I see Mercian as "Joe the discount frambuilder" and nothing more.

I think that could be changed easily, and I'd skip the "Mark" and just order one with Nobilette on it. That said, being stone broke I'm not really tempted Plus, there are many other custom

If Jan simply wanted to make the type of bike he wants to ride, then he should have put his Grand Bois trademark on it, and building the brand rather than trying to shortcut the process by assuming a more established name.

In regards to your Mercian response, I have made no assessment as to their quality/cost rubric. I simply have stated that their means and methods do not seem to have changed since at least the 1960's, regardless of ownership. Further, their trademark is based more upon a small production company, rather than the name of a speecific builder. Rivendell has gone through at least three custom builders in the last 20 years, supplemented here and there by Waterford, for their custom frames (not their ususal offerings). VO tried (and gave up on) a similar arrangement on the east coast. With mercian, you are buying a brand. With Herse, until recently, you were buying a frame built by a specific person; or at least under his close supervision.

That's got to be the least inspired graphics design I've seen on a modern custom bike. Not that I've seen many, but that just looks so...commonplace. Like he sourced his letter stickers at Home Depot.

Grand Bois is a brand and it's not Heine's. His company (Compass) is simply an importer/distributor of their tires and accessories. Grand Bois contracts with various builders to make their frames, Panasonic to make their tires and Nitto to make many of their components/accessories.

It may be a repaint and not Nobilette's "graffics". I really don't know.

Careful.

Heh, I've been known to do that.

I see a lot to like in these pics though....








...and his lettering can be nifty!