A lot of what makes a component "good" is how it's used, however there is a very definite issue of quality to how a component is made- whether it's the materials, the design, the manufacturing process...

As you read about Suntour- Maeda charged what THEY thought their product was worth, instead of letting the market decide. As a result, Suntour didn't charge a lot and their stuff ended up going on department store bikes- but because of their slant parallelogram rear derailleur- it shifted and fucntioned better than anything else- regardless of price. While most people now generally recognize that superiority of that function (though not necessarily the "pretty" of the pieces), I can imagine it would have been hard to admit that entry level stuff actually was the best stuff.

A few weeks ago there was a thread about the quality of the Takagi Tourney XT crankset. My 1984 Stumpjumper came with one- so I kind of figured it was good stuff and replied as such in the thread. It looks graceful, yet sufficiently robust to look like it means business. The previous owner of my Stumpjumper rode it all over for (probably) thousands of miles for 20+ years. When I was putting together my Voyageur, I specifically sought out a Takagi Tourney XT crankset. It's a brand that was bought out by Shimano- and it was never really a piece that was on a LOT of stuff- so it's kind of unknown- but in my mind it had cache and was quality.

When I bought my Trek 620- it had some replacement wheels on there- I was kind of happy since I didn't HAVE to replace the Helicomatic that came on there originally. However, I found some wheels with Atom high flange hubs laced to some Mavic rims. While the high flange hubs are shiny and the Mavic labels are pretty, I don't think they're really way up there on the food chain for robust wheels. As a result, I've wanted to upgrade to something a little different. I have a set of wheels with Belgian made Weinmann rims- although these came on a low end Trek- the more I looked at those wheels- Double walled, eyeletted... I think those are good, guality rims. But when I think of Weinmann, I don't think of a prized, coveted piece.

Speaking of Weinmann... in the Show Your Vintage Touring Bike thread, Lascauxcaveman posted his Peugot with Weinmann cantilever brakes- and I found that Charlie Kelly used those when he was building his own personal Mountain Bike in the very formative years of downhill Mountain Biking. IMO- those brakes, regardless of function, have cache because of that.

So what is the porpoise of this thread?

First, and quite selfishly- are those Belgian made Weinmann 27" rims "good stuff?"

Secondly- what are some of those "sleeper" components that people pass by looking for Campagnolo or XT or...

Weinmann 27" rims are ok. Most of them are not Hook bead, meaning you need to use a wire beaded Tire. My Favorite Sleeper Component are Suntour "sealed" or "WTB" hubs. They spin great, good quality an you can find NOS sets Relatively cheap. I just bought a set of these for a Fuji I'm rehabing. I just need to respace the rear hub to 126, no big deal. They even have grease ports !!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/221298714807...ht_1329wt_1362

Suntour Bar ends are another one of my Favorites, So are MKS pedals.
I tend to stick to Campagnolo group sets, but I do make exceptions....

The weinmann concave rims were pretty decent. My favorite vintage rims were the Super Champion 58s for touring and heavy duty use and the Mavic Mod Es. Agree that the sealed suntour or wtb hubs were fantastic. I have several sets (sealed superbe, sealed cyclone, sealed xc pro) and they all spin as nicely today as when I first bought them after lots and lots of miles. I'm pretty the sealed specialized were just a rebranded suntour and they are also excellent. MKS still makes great pedals. I just bought a pair of the MKS lambda pedals that look funky but they are a really fine set of platform pedals if you want to ride with regular shoes.

My favorite vintage component is the stronglight A9 headset. They were fairly inexpensive and lasted and lasted and lasted. I grew up in a city that had (and still has) really rough roads (New Orleans is built on mud and it is impossible to keep the roads there in decent shape). It was a great city to test out headsets though. I've seen more than a few campy headsets come back to the shop pitted. This never happened to the A9s. You can still get a needle bearing one inch headset if you look around like this, https://www.rivbike.com/product-p/hsrd.htm.

Personal experience on my Magneet tourer has me close to 5100 miles on my set of Weinmann rims with no problems whatsoever. They're still holding true and have had no flat spot problems despite the number of potholes I've failed to miss over the years. I have no plans whatsoever to upgrade. If it's not broke, don't fix it.

I've always considered Weinmann components to be greatly underrated, mainly because Schwinn used the brand for so many years. And of course, any classic buff knows that if it appeared on a Schwinn, it's got to be mediocre .

A few of my favorite (relatively) economical "sleeper" components:

Weinmann's concave rims.
Huret's Challenger rear derailleur
Avocet's Touring saddles
Suntour's "Power" shifters
Universal 68 brakes

Sachs stuff from the 90's.

Quality and finish-wise as nice as anything out there. Look for top-end New Success and Quarz. Indestructible derailleurs and the smoothest hub bearings you've ever spun. I've used the same New Success group on two different bikes (both my "main" riders) since 1995.

TGB, For the selfish question I have had good luck with the older Weinmann rims.

On to the second question. There are a ton of lower level road bike components whose only sin are that they weigh more than their upper level component cousins. I built my son's Olmo with a Suntour Blaze drivetrain that with a little polishing looks rather good, IMHO. A set of RSX DP calipers greatly improve stopping. My current project is using RX100 parts mixed with a 105 crankset and brake levers.

My touring bike is using an Alivio FD and hubs and a STX RD along with a CODA branded Sugino crankset. This was a bike I felt I'd really be upgrading, but after almost three years, I don't have a good reason to do so.

My mountain bike is a true mutt of Shimano components, from brand new, with the low end parts as durable as the upper end parts. It ranges from STX to XT level.

Brad

PS Auchen, I really liked my Avocet Touring II, but my older daughter liked it also and it's on her CX bike.

I liked the Berthet pedals. Simple to service, real easy to get into and good with bare feet. Suntour VX derailler I put on my Lambert in 1972 is now on my wifes Mercian. (sorry, Ive gone Campy everything)
I am still using some Phil Wood hubs that I got in 78. I updated from a 120 to 126 axel in 85.

The best testament to how "good" something is would be its combination of function, durability and aesthetics (in that order).

Campagnolo Record/Nuovo Record etc. has been all three, throughout the ages. Unfortunately it's always been expensive, too. Same goes for boutique manufacturers (Paul Components, Chris King, early Ringle, American Classic, Cook Brothers, etc.).

From the late 60s to the early 80s there were very few manufacturers that could touch Maeda Industries for F/D/A. Their metallurgy was always outstanding. The Superbe Pro group they eventually came out with (too late, as it turned out) was better than anything before or since (IMO). Unfortunately, Maeda/SunTour decided to embrace complicated pivot design (vs. building on what they had that worked so well in the slant parallelogram), and Shimano came in and ate them alive with SIS.

Shimano was in SunTour's shadow for a hell of a long time (not many people remember it), but then determined to up the ante on its competitors, and as a result it came out with the 1-2 punch that settled it for everyone (e.g. Dura Ace 7400-series and Deore XT 7-speed SIS). I still use both groups, and they are still going strong on bikes in the current stable. Despite all the flack they used to take for Rapid Fire and for their brifters (justified), they still offered up bar-end shifters for retro-grouches like me.

Too bad they decided to make their parts proprietary and ass-fugly after about 1995. It's why Sugino is still with us, in fact.

SRAM took Sachs/Sedis/Huret technology, stole a little from Shimano and eventually became a player, but it doesn't really belong on vintage bikes.

And then there were the French. The good ones (TA Specialities; Mavic; Stronglight) are still with us. The ones that self-destructed or tried to kill us (AVA; Simplex; Maillard) are not.

Sleepers -
Takagi cranksets
Sugino cranksets and seatposts
Sachs/Sedis chains, cranks, hubs, freewheels
Miche hubs, derailleurs, etc.
Weinmann brakes (60s-late 70s)
Dia Compe / Grand Compe brakes, levers
SR/Sakae Ringyo anything from the late 70s through the mid 90s
Sun Rims
Matrix rims
Araya rims (double-wall; tubular)
Suzue hubs (particularly the sealed-bearing cartridge ones)
Sunshine hubs (particularly the track hubs)
Simplex alloy friction shifters
Simplex Super LJ derailleurs

Miche is based in Italy. Yes, they do still manufacture sound components.

Sorry, I should have taken that nap before I posted.

Here's my list of sleeper parts - as defined by reliability, relative rarity, and obscurity resulting in a low price.

Lambert / Viscount cranks - just like TA or Stronglight cranks but with English threading and typically 1/3 of the price
Nervar cranks - same as the Lamberts
Simplex retro friction shifters, and the various Spidel and Mavic versions
SunTour V-GT Luxe rear derailleurs, Vx-GT derailleurs - best touring derailleurs ever
MAFAC cantilever brakes, MAFAC brake levers, MAFAC centerpulls - high resale value if they are complete and nicely restored, but easy to find
Shimano 500 centerpulls - surprisingly well made!
Shimano Light Action / Z series - an entry level group with a very nice, understated silver look and excellent mechanicals. Their light action ratchet shifters are second only to simplex retro frictions as the best friction shifters out there
Shimano oval chain - 1/8" chain originally made for cruiser bikes but looks awesome on a track bike, very sturdy and reliable

some modern bits that are great for restorations:

sunrace thumb shifters - a grant Peterson favorite, $10 a set and just as good as any vintage bits
Alex DA or Weinmann LP18 rims laced to Quando hubs - sub-$100 wheel set that looks right on a vintage build
Action Bicycles cork bar wrap - cheapest out there but look great. A little bit of lacquer over natural cork tape and you have the same look and feel as leather for sixth of the price

bonus - cant afford a Campagnolo Pista crankset? Get an old Strada set that's 144bcd and then grind off the inner chainring tabs. Once mounted on a bike, no one will know the difference.

A lot of Suntour stuff did not just go on department store bikes, a lot of low end Suntour stuff did as did a lot of low end Shimano stuff. Once you got past the Seven line of derailleurs the rest could only be found on bikes sold in LBS's. But like you said even the low to mid end Suntour stuff shifted better than the top of the line stuff sold by Shimano or Campy after the slant parallelogram derailleur was introduced. The higher end Suntour used the same slant parallelogram design but they went further with using lighter parts and better mechanicals. Once you got into ARX, Cyclone, Sprint, Superbe, and the Vx series those were mostly LBS's offerings. There were some exclusions to that, when Nishiki and Centurion started to piss of LBS's and selling their bikes to retail stores some of those came with the higher end Suntour but I don't recall if any of those ever had Superbe or Sprint. For the most part Suntour mid level on up was mostly sold in LBS's.

Miche was not that great either, they lacked in quality until sometime in the 80's and 90's they rebadged Suntour derailleurs with the Miche name. Mavic wasn't all that great either, they were made by Simplex! So to say Mavic was better then Simplex is pure ignorance of the two models.

I think the best French made derailleur was the Huret, the Jubilee and Duopar was virtually indestructible and it shifted better than the Campy and Shimano of the day, and the shift levers were the best levers ever made by anyone. And you also have to keep in mind that until the slant parell. design by Suntour came out all, and I mean ALL derailleurs were crappy in function, but that's all there was so you went with what you had, after that companies strived to make the derailleurs better and shifting quality eventually went up in all brands but it took quite a few years probably not until Shimano SIS came out was there any measurable improvement. Sach/Huret came out in the early 80's, to say early 80's bikes are not vintage is just not right unless in your mind anything newer than 1979 is not vintage. But it was in that age of Sach/Huret that a truly classic Duopar derailleur came out, the finest French derailleur ever made.

As a side note, I have two bikes with the newest STI (2013 105) and Ergo (2006 Athena) shifting systems, and I test rode Dura Ace and Ultegra, and none of those shift faster than the SIS did! SIS is just faster for some reason, I push or pull the lever to the next click and bang it's in gear, with STI or Ergo there is a slight delay and a slightly softer engagement, plus with SIS I could shift from first to 7th and bang it's there right now, not so with either of the other newer stuff. In fact my friction Suntour Superbe non indexed shifter shifts as fast as my newer stuff! I'm just saying what i've experienced which I'm sure most of you will disagree, after all how dare the newer stuff be rated below older stuff, it's sacrilege.

I've noticed the same as well. The Dura Ace 7400 system with SIS on my 80's Allez shifts faster than all of the modern groups (DA7900, Ultegra 6700, Sram Force/Red, Tiagra) that I've tried so far. I'm not sure if 7400 actually shifts faster but at the very least the shifts feel more direct. A pull or push on the lever and it's in the next gear without any fuss. I've been thinking of modernizing the group on my Allez to something with integrated shift/brake levers but the direct feel of the 7400 group is giving me pause about the "upgrade".

I'm going to go with this one, he looks jolly:

A friend who knows or at least used to know bikes, the guy who gave me my Masi frame, was always a big Campy fan for the aesthetics. He never liked the Suntour V-series stuff because it didn't have the nice finish of Campy. I never noticed back when that stuff was new because I was too busy riding and loving the shifting, and never could see the derailleurs when I was riding anyway. Truth be told, back then I never had any Campy for comparison. I can see the difference now, of course. But I still have no worries about putting Vx derailleurs on a good bike. They just work too well.

The point is, my criteria would always place aesthetics last. Functionality and low weight with out. They usually go together in the nicer components.

I wouldn't upgrade, there simply is no need, plus the expense of doing so is crazy. Don't forget to that the SIS system if more reliable and less hassle and far less expensive to repair.

The Vx series was a killer of a deal when they came out, here was an inexpensive mid level derailleur that could far out shift any other derailleur on the market regardless of price. Then on top of that the VX was bulletproof, it wouldn't break for nothing! It may not have been a pretty derailleur or a light weight derailleur but it more then got the job done. I still see those Vx's on vintage bikes being ridden all the time around where I live. I never had a Vx series derailleur but I do have Superbe Tech and that is a superb derailleur with over 160,000 miles and still shifts like it did when it was new; when I got that derailleur I later heard of horror stories about how unreliable they were so I bought another one just for when it would fail...I still have the other one unused. The Tech S road series was designed for fast shifting under extreme pressure like going up mountains, and I use to live in California and I can tell you from experience that I could shift that thing going up a steep grade and not worry about taking anywhere near the amount of pressure off the cranks to shift like I had to with a Dura Ace friction unit I have. I just move the lever going up a steep incline and bang that dang thing shifted right now.

I also have the Suntour Mountech II derailleur which is mountain/touring derailleur version of the Tech but looks different, anyways it too supposedly had the same issues as the Superbe Tech. I can't speak about the durability of this derailleur yet because I only have about 2200 miles on it, but, like the Superbe Tech it's the fastest shifting friction derailleur I've ever used for wide gear ranges. This one came stock on my 85 Schwinn Le Tour Luxe I bought used with just 250 miles on it and was in showroom condition when I got it about 3 or 4 years ago.

In general, that's very true. However, in the late 80's Nashbar closed out Super Record braze on front derailleurs for ten bucks a pop.

Yes, I bought ... one.

Campy Super Record FD's didn't shifted all that good compared to the top end competition in its day.

Nashbar had a habit of such great closeouts....Superbe Pro parts went pretty cheap in early 90s.
And Campy 2006 spec parts too. I picked up some Record and Centaur 10 speed hubs for cheap.
Fast forward a few years and Silver Record hubs were going for $500 a set!

I have a set of the L422 shifters- I found them too stiff and FAR preferred the Sachs/Huret shifters. But I thought- I should probably get those out and give them a second chance- so I just went down to the basement, found the box and the bag... and bam... they're exploded all over the bag.

Is there some place that has an exploded diagram of how these go together?

I have a clamp on boss that I have some SIS shifters on- I could twistie tie those together- but the L422s... they have to be screwed on to something to hold them together apparently.

So in looking at people's "sleepers" here- it's interesting that a lot of people stumble over the same things- not talked about, not prized possessions, not feverish acquisitions... Just stuff that you've discovered that works/looks great.

My favorite saddle is the San Marco Touring- it came on a few touring bikes in 86- and that's it. I don't think I've seen it specced on anything other than Voyageurs, Passages and Trek 620. Although I like the Avocet Touring IIs that I have, the one drawback to the San Marco is that it doesn't have loops for hanging a bag- which the Avocets have.



As I mentioned before- the Sachs/Huret ratcheting shifters. I'm really excited to try the Simplex retrofrictions and compare them to the Sachs/Huret shifters- I find the action... "silky" compared to the Suntour ratcheting stuff (I've never used the Suntour Sprint friction shifters, which I've heard has a more fine ratcheting action than the Power Shifters).





It's interesting that stuff that would have been ubiquitous even on low end bikes makes it onto here. Stuff like Araya rims, Sanshin hubs, SR stems and bars, DiaCompe brakes/levers... Stuff that was specced on lower end bikes- but still trucking along 30 years later- sometimes with zero maintenance. So far from being "crappy" components- they suffer from being inexpensive, being on everything, and not having that "quality" cache.

Shimano 'Z' series brakes and Light Action derailers have been mentioned, but I also like the upper-tier Exage comps. EX 400/500 is pretty much the same as 105 with different cosmetics and finish; ditto for CX/LX 500 and Deore LX.
I also like the SunTour 'backwards' FDs,plain 'ol Normandy high-flange hubs, and Viscount/Lambert cranksets. The set on my Super Sport consists of Nevar BB and crank arms, Lambert small and middle ring, and Viscount outer ring.

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That Z series stuff... I think it's an interesting time in Shimano's lineup. I think that group was supposed to be a cross between a MTB and Touring set. I've seen it introduced on the Trek line on the sport bikes. It seems the Z206 FD was on tons of bikes. It worked welll as a double and it worked well as a triple AND half-step gearing. I have a set of the Z series drop bar brake levers. They're the second coolest looking brake levers evAr. Velobase has them listed as a part of the Golden Arrow 105 group. IMO the slotted Superbe levers are the coolest- but the Z306 levers are really cool. I also have a set of the 6207 600 series slotted levers- they're the same besides the 600 and Shimano logos.

fascinating story! i've tried unsuccessfully to dismantle these shifters multiple times, it's like they just don't want to come apart. so i'm amazed to hear a set came apart on their own.

i don't have any resources to share, but if you post a pic of the parts maybe we can suggest how they go back together.