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Braking effort on Campy GS levers?

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Braking effort on Campy GS levers?

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Old 01-02-14 | 04:31 AM
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Braking effort on Campy GS levers?

Considering I do a lot of city riding to get out on the open coastal roads I am having issues braking from the top of the hoods as one would do with modern brifters. Considering that I need to change out the brake cables will this reduce brake lever effort? I like the looks of the VO braided cables however I do not understand how stiffness correlates to braking effort.

Or; is braking effort linked to the tensioning spring on the calipers?

I would like to avoid adding cross levers on the tops however I would prefer not eating a car even more because I cannot stop in time.
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Old 01-02-14 | 05:36 AM
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When braking is an important part of your ride, I suggest you put on modern brakepads and lube the inside of the cable housing. Also make sure the cables don't make any sharp bends. It shouldn't be the levers that increase the amount of effort for sufficient braking power. Unless the levers are being withheld by the hoods when these are not fitted properly. Modern levers will surely be more smooth but they just don't look the part on your Olmo...
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Old 01-02-14 | 06:07 AM
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I would try a new set of brake pads first. Make sure the Cables don't bind.
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Old 01-02-14 | 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Gdando
Considering I do a lot of city riding to get out on the open coastal roads I am having issues braking from the top of the hoods as one would do with modern brifters. Considering that I need to change out the brake cables will this reduce brake lever effort?
Because of the relationship of the pivot point to where the cable is anchored, non-aero (exposed cable) brake levers will never work as well when braking from the tops as do modern aero levers. Just a fact of life.

Replace the cables and housing, and maybe install some Koolstop salmon pads.
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Old 01-02-14 | 06:26 AM
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I have installed Koolstop pads which have helped with stopping power. My question was more in reference to lever spring tension and since the cables appear to be original from the early 80's what cables (VO or Jagwire) would reduce lever pressure. The second question was if the caliper spring could be changed to one with less tension.
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Old 01-02-14 | 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Gdando
I have installed Koolstop pads which have helped with stopping power. My question was more in reference to lever spring tension and since the cables appear to be original from the early 80's what cables (VO or Jagwire) would reduce lever pressure. The second question was if the caliper spring could be changed to one with less tension.
Replacing the cables and housing will definitely help the brakes operate more smoothly. I doubt that there is any way that you would be able to change the spring tension on the caliper itself. It inherently takes more hand pressure to brake from the tops with non-aero levers. With these levers, all serious braking should be done from the hooks.
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Old 01-02-14 | 07:39 AM
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+1 on cables. Unless you know yours are new-ish, replace cables and housing. Jagwire cables are great and the housing has a teflon liner that is super-slick and normally doesn't need lubing. I'm not familiar with VO cables & housing, but maybe they are the same.

Your thread title suggests you have Campy Grand Sport brakes, no? I have them on one bike, love them. They work great, so I wouldn't place any blame on their geometry or mechanical advantage.
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Old 01-02-14 | 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Gdando
I have installed Koolstop pads which have helped with stopping power. My question was more in reference to lever spring tension and since the cables appear to be original from the early 80's what cables (VO or Jagwire) would reduce lever pressure. The second question was if the caliper spring could be changed to one with less tension.
Forget messing about w/ the spring and do as others have suggested & install fresh well lubed cables w/ a smooth run.
Housing length short as possible w/ an elegant loop and not binding as the bars are turned full stop L&R.
Rear routed over the bars was OEM on most builds.
Lever positioning & cable length per the pic.
Good time to consider Right/Front or Left/Front fitting, there can be a definite preference by rider.

GS brakes w/ modern pads and well fitted modern cables will be suitable for spirited descents and have fine modulation for paceline riding. It does take adaptation to feel out the progression & modulation of each set-up and build muscle memory.

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Old 01-02-14 | 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael Angelo
I would try a new set of brake pads first. Make sure the Cables don't bind.
Yes. That and comparing Campagnolo single pivots to dual pivots (of almost any recent brand) and the dual pivots have more power for less effort, period.

I always have to adjust my grip when first riding my Dual pivot equipped bike, they just need less effort to stop you as fast and you can stop faster if road conditions allow. I ride down a 14% grade every morning with a stoplight at the end, rare is the occasion that I hit the light green in my favor.
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Old 01-02-14 | 08:51 AM
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Seeing Eddy on Adidas cycling shoes way back induced me to buy a pair. My favorite shoes, even today.
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Old 01-02-14 | 09:58 AM
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Thank you all for the input. I am looking at the Jagwire Road Pro "Racer" kit. Is there anything I need for it to work with my GS groupset?
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Old 01-02-14 | 10:39 AM
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I would set the bars a little higher so that I could ride in the drops most of the time. Works for my urban commuting.
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Old 01-02-14 | 10:41 AM
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That's a neat pic of Eddy. Looks like he's just getting ready to tap the front to enter a corner. I dig the shoes too.
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Old 01-02-14 | 11:13 AM
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Make sure the handles fit your hands. My otherwise all-Italian Bianchi has Shimano aero brake handles, which I can grab more effectively than stock Modolo, Campagnolo, or MAFAC levers, which seem to be designed for longer finger reach than mine. Disabling the return springs in the handles, thereby letting the caliper springs do all of the work, helped a bit, as well. KoolStop pads go without saying -- I tried some great-looking Shimano pads and was able to slow, but not completely stop, on a steep downward slope.
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Old 01-02-14 | 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Bandera
Good time to consider Right/Front or Left/Front fitting, there can be a definite preference by rider.
-Bandera
Yup -- the old conventional wisdom of putting the dominant hand on the rear brake is probably NOT the right way to go. Left-front is fine for me, but most of you right handers would be better off with right-front (see ShedonBrown.com for a good discussion of why).
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Old 01-02-14 | 11:44 AM
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Left-front is fine for me too. Too late to change now.
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Old 01-02-14 | 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Gdando
I have installed Koolstop pads which have helped with stopping power. My question was more in reference to lever spring tension and since the cables appear to be original from the early 80's what cables (VO or Jagwire) would reduce lever pressure. The second question was if the caliper spring could be changed to one with less tension.
1. The brake levers have no springs in them, or their force is minimal compared to the springs in the calipers.

2. No change in cable will reduce hand force. By renewing the cables or at least cleaning and lubing, you can make the cable respond more smoothly to the lever.

3. The caliper spring tension cannot be changed without damaging the springs.

The calipers should be disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled with only appropriate lubrication. You might need a book such as Zinn and the Art of Road Bike Maintenance to see how to do this. But it will make your brakes squeeze and release more smoothly, not make them brake harder for a given amount of squeeze.

What will improve your braking from the hoods is to switch to a set of aero levers. And at the same time rebuild your calipers and renew your cables.

Finally: turkey levers do not brake better than standard levers. They may be dangerously worse it not perfectly adjusted.

Last edited by Road Fan; 01-02-14 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 01-02-14 | 11:58 AM
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Your rims aluminum or steel?
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Old 01-02-14 | 01:27 PM
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IIRC and FWIW, Jagwire says do not lubricate their cables. The housings are slick inside without it and lubrication could just gum things up.
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Old 01-02-14 | 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by himespau
Your rims aluminum or steel?
The rims are the original aluminum Fiame.

I don't understand the comment of mounting the bars higher for urban riding. This is how she is setup now.
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Old 01-02-14 | 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Gdando
I don't understand the comment of mounting the bars higher for urban riding. This is how she is setup now.
Nice bike!

Here's my thinking: old-style non-aero brake levers were designed to be used from the drops, and weren't expected to provide great braking from the hood position. When you see old pictures of racers riding on the hoods, they're looking ahead and only anticipating scrubbing off a little speed from that position.

Modern aero brake levers and brifters have gotten us used to that upper position, so that newer bikes are generally set up with the handlebars a little lower than they were in the past.

If your reason for being on the hoods is more comfort or to be able to look around easier, raising the bars (or developing more flexibility ) so that you can ride in the drops would be a good solution. My fixed-gear and "rando" bikes both have non-aero brake levers, and so it works best to have the bars about 1-2" below the saddle so that I can spend 95% of my time in the drops. At least for me, that gives a good balance of comfort, aerodynamics, situational awareness, and braking ability.
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Old 01-02-14 | 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Gdando
Considering ...I am having issues braking from the top of the hoods as one would do with modern brifters. Considering that I need to change out the brake cables will this reduce brake lever effort? I like the looks of the VO braided cables however I do not understand how stiffness correlates to braking effort.

Or; is braking effort linked to the tensioning spring on the calipers?
There are several things with the older brake setup that makes them inferior to new road brakes:
  • Your old brake pads may be hard with age and need replacing. Plus the old Campy pads were not the grippiest.
  • The old cables were simple spiral wound. Better, newer cables are pressed into a smoother circular shape, and may even be teflon coated. Reduction in friction.
  • The old housings were unlined spiral metal. Newer cable housings are teflon lined. Less friction again.
  • The old calipers had brutally stiff springs. Partially to over come the two problems above, and also because in the old days, the levers were not spring loaded. This is much of the problem you are facing. Too much hand force required.
  • The newer aero brake levers have a better leverage from the hoods.
  • The newer dual pivot brakes are self-centering (big advantage) but the key thing here is that they inherently have more mechanical advantage than the old single pivot brakes.

Bottom line: you can futz around all you want with the old stuff, but a $50 lever/caliper Tektro combo will work better than any of the old brakes, no matter how carefully they are set up.

I have owned or used every one of the better old brakes including Campy Record, Record Delta, Suntour Superbe, Gran Comp, Dura-Ace 7400, etc. They all suck compared to the very cheapest of the new dual pivots. The second tier brakes such as Weinmann, Modolo, Mafac DiaCompe etc. sucked worse. Into the trash with all of them....

For your health and welfare, do yourself a favor and trash the old brakes and levers.
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Old 01-02-14 | 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott
Here's my thinking: old-style non-aero brake levers were designed to be used from the drops, and weren't expected to provide great braking from the hood position. When you see old pictures of racers riding on the hoods, they're looking ahead and only anticipating scrubbing off a little speed from that position.
Well now, I don't know that that's a universal truth. Racers may run the drops most of the time (I'm definitely no racer, never have been, never played one on TV), but I've spent all my life routinely braking from the hoods with Mafac, Weinmann, Dia-Compe, etc. Sure, in a panic stop on the tandem I might reach for the brake levers from the drops but that's pretty rare. Of course, the trick to avoiding panic stops is to brake early, brake often, like voting. Dual-pivot Tektros are awesome, as are the other modern brakes on a few of my bikes. But the older systems work well from the hoods.
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Old 01-02-14 | 06:20 PM
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My Campy Nouvo Record, Cobalto, and Mirage single-pivot sidepull brakes work fine from the hoods, even with the stock Campy cables and pads. One of my bikes had some of those Fiamme Red Label rims. I found those rims to be slippery and soft metal that easily galled, grooved, and built up various residues. Switched to Mavic GP-4 dark anodized rims and they brake much nicer. Tektro brakes and levers on a vintage Olmo?
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Old 01-02-14 | 06:34 PM
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IMO what the OP has to do is just change the pads for new ones and if he could just change the brake levers for something newwer like maybe the cane creek ones, those have more leverage than the old stuff he is using.
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