Replicas..
 

Just pondering... before restoring bicycles, I restored old muscle cars, in that industry it is very common to use a base, lets say 68 Mustang, and turn it into a Shelby, or other high end Stang from the same period, I am curious why this does not seem to be similar in bicycle, so may frames to choose from etc, the De Rosa thread got me thinking about that, I mean decals are available, repaint a frame is pretty affordable etc
opinions?

Not cost effective and probably detrimental to the value of the finished product. The cost of the real deal and producing replica is pretty small.

Turning a pedestrian Mustang into a Shelby or Boss 302 as examples, both started out as Ford Mustangs.

The equal in the bike industry would not be very rewarding, say, taking a typical 80's DeRosa and turning it into a 35th anniversary model?
You would probably spend more in creating that compared to just sourcing a true example.

Having a Criterium Series frame I could just as well build a Black Lightning with the proper components and readily available decal kit. However, it really was the frame that attracted me and the ease of modernizing.

Yes, you can build knock-offs quite easily and is the main reason why one must be vigilant when purchasing a top shelf bike.

One could take say a high end Gitane, paint it blue, apply the appropriate decals to make a copy of A team issued bike. That seems valid as for the most part team issued bikes don't exist. Taking say a Panasonic and making a Merckx, not cooll on so many levels. At one time I wanted to make a Flandria team bike from a Flying Dutchman but had more important things to do.

In the case of C'dale forging a BL is nothing but black paint and gold decals. No headache there. I like BL's by the way!!

Honestly? Both sound like rip-off's to me. If I wanted a true 68 Mustang Shelby...that is what I want...not something that was "turned into" one...it never was one, IMHO. Same applies to bikes...even the idea of turning one into a "team bike"...sounds like a rip off to me.

But...that is just my opinion...

I can only think of one exception. The 1973 Bottecchia top of the line models, Professional and Giro d'Itaila, had the same frame, color and except for one model decal the same decal's. The conversion is to replace the group. You can go either up or down with the Professional being at the top. Cost effective? Not unless you already have all the parts. Even then, the sum (complete bike) is not equal to the value of the all the parts independently.

and command an inflated price on the flip. But then, BL's were purely cosmetic.

I too, love me a good BL. Just couldnt find or afford one that was intact. :)

This is not to disparage or cast shadows on those that lovingly restore such classics among us.

Good subject. I currently have a basket case 1966 Chevelle convertible (powerglide, mouse motor, bench seat) which I'm selling and I fully expect the eventual buyer to turn into an SS "tribute" car. The reason. of course, is a fake SS will bring about 10-15 grand more at resale than a straight restoration to stock. If everything needs replacing anyway, you might as well spend a bit more on the upgrades while you're at it. Plus, it's a just a much cooler car that way.

You don't see those big differences in buying/selling bikes.

Having said that, I'm contemplating "upgrading" a cheap hi-ten Japanese frame I have in my pile into a fake Legnano, because I'm good with paint and I like the colors. It won't fool anyone who knows anything about Legnanos, but it would be a fun project.

Thats my feeling as well. "Who knows anything about Legnanos". The vintage bike community is miniscule. If you like the name and color scheme, go for it. Legnano, Colnago, Masi. You're doing it for yourself. Maybe doing it just for the experience. I ride a Frejus or Gitane on group rides in the Chicago area. A tiny percentage of riders know what I'm riding. To most its just an old bike.

I'm slowly completing a 70's Motobecane of which I don't call it a replica but rather a tribute.

It started out as a scuzzy looking '78 Grand Sprint that was cheaply acquired. A nothing special junior racer of the day. I like how the Vitus 888 tubeset was used in the design. Ideal for the project as it never had rack eyelet braze-ons and the chainstays are clean without indent crimps. The Bocama fork ends and dropouts are cheap but can't be too greedy :)

The tribute conversion is in the team BIC scheme, orange and in memory of Luis Ocana. Lots of Motobecane marked parts and the rest is period Campagnolo N-Record. One of the reasons its a slow build is the goal to complete having a total budget of $200 and riding on tubulars. I'm really liking how its coming along and could care less what others think. Its just my thoughts in what could be made out of a cheap bike, retain the vintage character hot-rod and something different to show up on Sat. AM group rides.

The funny thing, this bike is simultaneously being built next to a 1972 Motobecane LeChampion. I'm constantly comparing parts, weighing everything and it seems the 'tribute' BIC bike will be slightly lighter in weight.

In the end, I respect the rare or original's and wouldn't do anything that couldn't be reversed.

Hah! Gotta love that outcome!

Tribute/Replica; it's all good fun!

I'm on board with this sentiment as well. If I want a De Rosa, I'll seek out a De Rosa as a fake will never make me happy. You can put lipstick on a pig, but at the end of the day, it's still a pig.

I would much rather take a powder blue "1969 Raleigh" tricycle and turn back into a 1954 Raleigh with original Flamboyant Blue repaint and original components. (winter project)

+1

With most high end desirable bicycles most of the things that make it high end are built into the frame. Geometry, workmanship, materials and the builders skill. Paint and decals don't produce the same thing. I've done a few old cars. With the right parts yes you can make a great muscle car tribute. With enough effort you can even get the suspension right. You can never match the value of matching numbers and the correct original build sheet but you can still build a very desirable car. I have a Ciocc that looks like s--t but it rides like a Ciocc. That old Miyata 110 painted and decaled like a Ciocc just won't be the same, ride or details. I think that is why most riders that like a great ride won't go there.

I've honestly never given it much thought, other than being convinced I could build an Ironman to pass nearly any blindfold test vs. many Italian bikes. However, the price difference really isn't that great. In the grand scheme, they're just bikes and fairly inexpensive.

If it's rare, collectible, and originally sold at a premium, the real deal may appreciate. The knockoff, not so much.

Here is a non-bike example. I bought a Herman Miller Eames lounge chair about 20 years ago, it cost 3X or more than a knockoff. At the time my business partner thought I was crazy, but I said we dealt with so many architects, every one would ask if it was the real deal and I would hate to have to say "no."
The knockoff would be worth 1/10th what my H-M Eames lounge chair is worth today.

I do see some of the problems mentioned, but also think you've got an idea worth keeping alive. Here's the greatest example I've ever known of someone doing such a thing. Speedplay Labs
A huge problem here is that, the frame alone, and the paintjob, are the only real distinguishing aspect of many bikes. And of course, many are so similar, that they are often hard to identify (or mis-identify!) when the labels come off. In some cases, if the bikes changed hands, they might be nearly impossible to verify. Look at the Miele in my list of bikes. I painted that in the backyard. It could have been ANY make of reasonably decent frame and really, who would question it?

Since the topic is a blend of bikes and cars, thought I'd share a bit.
Firstly, even though a car is far more complicated than a bike, near perfect 'replicas' exist and can FOOL WORLD-CLASS CAR EXPERTS. I personally know firsthand of one, so perfect its frightening to think what litigation could come from all the prior trading between auction houses, owners and museums. The danger is in misleading a buyer or misrepresenting the vehicle and or not declaring it as such.

The same goes for bikes. While I'm very well aware of faux special interest cars that may be misrepresented, I don't know enough of early bikes. There's been a few interesting Italian bikes I've considered. A 1930'-40-50 replica may actually been made in Europe during the 1970's and now showing a fine patina to it. The component and wheels are easy telltales but not so on frames and can easily fool. But thanks to some expert BF and CR experts having vast knowledge to a marque, they may be the only few who really know... but maybe not and that's the best I can hope for.

Although most buyers aren't going to cry badly if they later discover a bike purchase is a faux, but the purchase of a special interest car is going to hurt. It matters in the difference of dollars.

The car scene can get insane with dollar greed. Another one, widely publicized with controversy at Sotheby's... a 'stop' sale on a type D Auto-Union. This was a long anticipated, premier highlight for this auction.

Yet, there's some truly spectacular replica's that are blessed by its original designer. I know of a 65 Cobra Daytona coupe in the works. The original designer has personally made the trip to see it, measured and pulled numbers (I'll let you research and his initials are P.B.). While in the raw its stunning in all respects and I highly doubt the project will be misled as an original.
Then comes the non-replica's, but rather named 'tribute'.

Ah, the Pashley Guv'nor path racer

or
1963 Jaguar alloy bodied E-type!!!

I took a ride in 2286 once. Not far from the roads you rode in Centenario Bartali.

I saw one of the aluminium E-Types at the Blackhawk car museum in Dublin California.

^^ Cobra Daytona coupe^^ woooo. The real deal on those incredible roads! If I'm reading correctly that's the one having a bit mishap at Laguna Seca a few years back.

Getting back to replica's, I have tent pitched for a '58 Scarab.

...or the last of the front engine G.P. cars such as a '59 / '60 Aston Martin DBR powered by a carbureted Jag DOHC six.

....oh, and I'll also take a Chuck Beck made Porsche 904 powered by a 3.2 boxer six. You should see the blackie marks on Willow Springs left by these Beck replicas. (I'm goofy enough just now thinking about it and maybe have a dismantle my car party for the donor trans./eng.. Order the chassis and go the DIY route.)

edit- My picks represent flavors of the US, UK and Germany but no way could I resist something from Italy.
I'll gladly take a replica pumped up 1965 Alfa Romeo TZ2 Evocazione. The mini Ferrari GTO :)