Define "Classic" and "Vintage," please
 

I see ads on Craigslist now for "Vintage" bikes with carbon frames. How old, exactly, does a bike need to be to be considered "classic;" to be considered "vintage?"

Is it just age or are there aesthetic considerations?

Is any bike with a "compact frame geometry" and a sloping top-tube not considered "classic" or "vintage?"

Is any bike with a threadless headset automatically not in the group?

Just curious...

FH

This forum by and large accepts a large number of different bikes as being C&V. I've haven't seen anyone trying to police the boundaries of the category which is, I think, a good thing.

That said, for a first approximation for what is C&V, you could worse than the guidelines for the Cino Heroica which provides:

"What is a Heroic bike? Your bike must have at least three of the following characteristics to be considered Heroic:

• Steel frame
• A frame made in 1987 or earlier
• Non-indexed shifting
• Old style clip pedals and straps
• Single speed
• Downtube shift levers
• Tubular tires
• Fixed gear"

http://www.cinorider.com/the-bike-you-ride/

I'm a little skeptical of the date cut off as lot of great steel bikes were made in the 90s (including all 3 of my B'stone bikes!). Also mountain bikes can be a bit hard to fit into this category but the older high end mtbs with rigid forks are, I think, C&V droolworthy.

One definition, L'EROICA*REGULATION

"L’Eroica" bicycles are bicycles which have all the following characteristics:
road racing bikes, built before 1987 (not cycle-cross or time trial bikes);
steel frame (the only aluminium frame bikes permitted are ALAN or VITUS with either screwed or glued joints);
gear shift levers on the down tube of the frame (exceptionally, only pre-1980 bar-end gear shifts are allowed);
pedals with toe clips and fitted straps (quick release pedals are not allowed, except Cinelli M71 pedals);
passage of brake cables outside the handlebars (the passage of cables inside the frame is acceptable);
wheels must have at least 32 spokes with a low profile (less than 20 mm).

In the context of Craigslist "Classic" means useless old junk while "Vintage" means you need to seriously over pay for useless old junk.
Alternate meaning of both on Craigslist is: Stolen and I don't really know what it is but that sounds expensive and desirable.

-Bandera

This question gets asked at least 5 times a year.

We are an inclusive bunch - post what you want, people will respond if they chose. Generally speaking, this group has a lot of different kinds of members...some of us are more iconoclasts based around similar definitions to what the CR list uses. Some like cheap old bikes because, well, they're cheap. Interests vary across country of origin and components.

The CR list definition is 1983, light weight, steel. Some bikes of a later age are designated keeper of the flame.

It's subjective...and the forum includes classic, not just vintage.

Common definitions of vintage are:

20 years old
25 years old
up through 1983 (C/R list definition) , when many changes happened at once

Classic means different things to different people - to me it means bikes that are especially beautiful, influential or desired. There are CF bikes I consider classic and most vintage bikes aren't classic to me - they're just old. The bikes people like best here are usually the ones that are both classic AND vintage - like a 1970s De Rosa, or a Rene Herse.

Here we go again... LoL I believe 2012 the 87 soft cut off was discussed, making it bikes 25 years or older.. lots of us fudge that line anyhow, especially myself. But if we follow the correlation of 25 years, the current cut off would be 1989 bikes.. for the rest of this month. C&V is like art.. it's not going to be C&V to everyone.. but if it is C&V to you, you'll know it.

For me, a 1" threaded fork, quill stem and parallel top tube give a bike C&V appeal. At least for me it's more about aesthetics than age.

I think the 'mostly level top tube' stuff is a given. I personally think a classically styled bike made before Suntour died would fully qualify. If I had a Rivendell or a Heron or whatever else that exuded those qualities- I'd consider them "in" here.

I'm actually saddened that there's people with beautiful Rivendells and Herons that don't post their bikes here because they think some may say "that's not C&V" or "Grant is bad" or whatever.

I like this esp. after seeing how much crazy money people want on CL for old bikes that need a lot of work, :thumb:

I love bikes designed by Grant.. grants views not so much, and I saw mentioned in a fairly recent threads a lot of steel sleepers are comparable to his most desirable bikes at a fraction of the price.

To me, C&V is in the eye of the beholder...not a specific date or style...I have seen a few bikes here that I would not consider C&V, but...I still like looking at them. So...pretty much agree with Golden Boy...would love to see some of the Rivs...

also...on Craigslist...totally different story!

Highly subjective and something of a moving window, much like "antique."

As mentioned, the crowd in this particular C&V forum is really tolerant and welcoming, despite holding wildly different opinions as to what is old enough or desirable enough to be "C&V". :)

What's a bike forum thread about C&V without some post-1987 bike porn? If you like Grant, here you go, ;):



http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...5&d=1409427980


http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...9&d=1409427727

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...6&d=1409428059

To me, it is whatever you want it to mean. Your idea is probably different than mine, so hard and fast definitions don't really mean too much.

[American] English is such a democratic language. I like that... but it doesn't make defining words meanings too easy... as definitions evolve and change.

Bike by any other name would ride as sweet

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder


for me Classic is a style, an aesthetic feel. Lugged, diamond frame, clean lines, quill stem.
Age does not matter, modern components like sti can still be classic but hand threadless stems are rarely classic.

Vintage is age. What the cutoff is for vintage is hard to say.. I don't worry too much to much about vintage, but I don't mind using a vintage frame.

I don't much disagree with any of youse guys so far. But based on age alone, it's only a matter of time before a Wal-Mart BSO becomes a "classic." As to aesthetic form, some would argue that their Electra Townies already qualify as "classics."

It's good to have a laissez faire attitude toward definitions, but I predict that your elasticity will eventually be challenged (not necessarily a bad thing). I might define somewhat differently: A classic bicycle is "a bicycle work of industrial art that was intended to have worth beyond that of an otherwise mass-produced appliance." It's a slippery definition, I admit, and it casts a broad net. But under my definition, the Wal-Mart BSO would NEVER inherit "classic" status.

I'm not trying to troll, nor am I trying to change anything in this forum. I was just curious.

I see ads on Craigslist now for "Vintage" bikes with carbon frames.
As if Craigslist is chock full of experts on any subject.

How old, exactly, does a bike need to be to be considered "classic;" to be considered "vintage?"
Classic is a quality that implies ageless characteristics.
Vintage is an age-related opinion.

Is it just age or are there aesthetic considerations?
In regards to what? Define "it."

Is any bike with a "compact frame geometry" and a sloping top-tube not considered "classic" or "vintage?"
"Any" is a strong word, meaning "in all cases." The answer there is no.
Mountain?
Road?
BMX?
Cruiser.... you see what you can get into.

Most modern road bikes with compact geometry and sloping top tubes are not vintage. That shape itself may become classic, who knows?
Some are destined to be classics, we just don't know yet. Their collectors are still getting toilet-trained.


Is any bike with a threadless headset automatically not in the group?
That is a factor, but not an eliminator. There are always exceptions.

Just curious..

Remember what happened to the cat.

FarHorizon^^
I don't know about Wallymart but going back into the time machine of Montgomery Ward or Sears Roebuck, there were some decent bikes I regard as classic. You may only know them as low end labels but may in fact be a mid-level English, French, Austrian or Italian made.

+1 on Grant Petersen / Rivendell

Hi [MENTION=350383]crank_addict[/MENTION] -

I can't argue with you about department store bikes. Some were excellent. In college, I had a Schwinn Paramount that was most definitely a "classic." Back to my definition - it isn't the manufacturer or the age, but the quality that, to me, defines a "classic." But that's just me...

Hi [MENTION=108582]RobbieTunes[/MENTION] -

You're right - Craigslist's bicycle experts are generally conspicuous only in their absence. Nevertheless, some very nice classic bikes do appear there from time to time. Yes, most need lots of TLC, but compared with the stratospheric price of ANY new bike these days, they generally strike me as being bargains.

I've seen Schwinn Varsities listed as "classic"... or perhaps an old Huffy. No doubt new bikes will eventually reach that definition once the paint starts wearing off.

For a CF bike, any bike with metal lugs and CF tubes would soundly fit in the "classic" definition, even if not considered classic for some of the historic races.
CF bikes with straight round tubes may also be considered classic in the CF world (Parlee?)
1" threaded headsets and internal handlebar stems are apparently a classic feature, although one can weld up a new frame with them, as are downtube shifters, especially friction downtube shifters.

Many Walmart specials have threaded freewheels... which might rank them as "classic" right off of the showroom floor.

VINTAGE

1)
a : a season's yield of grapes or wine from a vineyard (2) : wine; especially : a usually superior wine all or most of which comes from a single year
b : a collection of contemporaneous and similar persons or things : crop

2
: the act or time of harvesting grapes or making wine

3
a : a period of origin or manufacture <a piano of 1845 vintage>

b : length of existence : age



…like trying to define "old". Or "cool". Or, "classic".

If I were to type out my definition, it wouldn't mean anything, to anyone but me.
I know what it is when I see it. But someone else may see it differently.

A full 2/3 to 3/4 of the bikes in these pages don't qualify under my definition.
But may to you.

Here is my timeline
2015 Next year's team bike
2014 Worn out hoopty, ride it until 2015 bike goes online
2013-1988 Worn out junk left in the attic or behind the cat box in the garage.
1987-1972 Classic
1971 and earlier, Vintage

Wait a few years, and some of the worn out junk ----> Classic

Those hipsters and their sloping top tubes.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-r...Frank-lenz.jpg