SquidPuppet

Hi all

I have a 1976 Varsity that has a broken cable guide on the down tube. I'd like to remove it, fabricate a new one, have it brazed on, and repaint the bike. I tried prying it off with channel locks and no go. I tried heating it and prying, and still a no go. I initially assumed these were just brass brazed on, but I think that isn't the case. Does anyone know how these were mounted and have any recommendations for a removal procedure other than grinding?

Thanks for any input.

Grand Bois

What makes you think they're not brazed? What did you use to heat the guide?

I think that you will do less damage by carefully cutting and filing than with a torch.

SquidPuppet

A friend (welder) got it hot enough that had it been brass, it seemed like it would have been flowing.

I don't have a problem with cutting and filing, if I knew how. The bracket plate is rounded (arced) and so is the tube. I can't see a clean way to cut between the two with a straight blade. I'm all ears for a tip.

Grand Bois

I'd have to see it. I've removed braze-ons with just a couple of files. Draw file when you are getting close.

I think you mean "all eyes".

repechage

Those electroforged frame cable guides were resistance welded in place, aka spot welded. Note the small rectangular depression at the base of the guide.
Time, money, effectiveness, done.
For the wall thickness of the material, not a bad way to go.
I am surprised the welder did not catch on.

JohnDThompson 

All the Schwinns I've seen from that era used brass to attach those fittings. What does it look like? Now that the paint is all burned off you should be able to determine what material was used.

Post a picture; it might help.

SquidPuppet

That was his suspicion after looking closely at the dimples. Any recommendations?

That's the weird thing. The plate has no visible bead at the edges. Even with the paint gone, you can't "see" where the actual bond is. I was tempted to take a really slim screwdriver to start under the edge, but I was concerned with gouging/denting the tube.

Metacortex

@repechage is correct, they were resistance welded and not brazed. At least they were from 1966 forward as I just checked several EF frames with that being the earliest. If anybody can find an EF frame with brazed-on stops I'd be interested to see a pic of the stop and the serial number (for dating purposes).

@SquidPuppet can you post a pic of the guides along with the serial no. and 4-digit badge no.? I ask because sometime in '76 Schwinn changed the stamped and welded cable stops on EF 10-speed models from 2-piece to 1-piece versions, and I'm trying to nail down more closely when that change took place:



To answer the original question I would take them off with a sharp chisel, then finish smooth by grinding.

Grand Bois

I'd still attack it with files. It will take longer but they're easier to control than a grinders or chisels.

I filed Cyclo shifter bosses off of this double butted Reynolds 531 1959 Carlton when I converted it to IGH. I was much less concerned about getting it done quickly than about damaging that frame!

JMONAY

What a coincidence, I just finished restoring/rebuilding a '76 Varsity for a friend of mine. I do believe @Metacortex and @repechage are correct - the cable guides and kickstand housings were electroforged on along with the rest of the frame pieces so essentially the entire thing is now one piece of steel, as Sheldon Brown says.



The kickstand housing was so badly damaged and rusted that I chose to grind it off and use a new kickstand (with his permission). Without a picture, I don't know how much of your cable guide is left but I say it would be safe to grind it mostly off and then refine it the rest of the way with a file and then 80 grit. That's what I did. Or just file it all off slowly and carefully and you are guaranteed to be fine. After that, I think brazing on your new one should work well. Good luck

JMONAY

May 1976 and what looks like "1386" with the one-piece cable guide for my friend's (and a handy before/after pic)

Metacortex

Thanks! That means the changeover happened in May or earlier frame production. The 1386 number means the bike was built on Monday May 17, 1976. If anybody else has a '76 EF 10-speed model I'd be interested in those details as well.

JMONAY

That's so cool! Well, now my friend knows when "Kayla's" exact birthday is, so thank you for that. Also, you have made me very curious about the changeover date now. What you're doing is along the lines of what I like to do too, except I usually don't give myself enough time to get much done. I'm trying to find the exact birth dates of my classic Raleighs right now ...

and @SquidPuppet sorry for getting off topic

CroMo Mike 

Use a Dremel with a grinding stone and just grind where the weld spots are. When you are almost through the bracket but not into the frame, grab the bracket with a vise grip plier and twist it off (the welds will break out of the bracket). Finish up with the stone (carefully) and or a file.

SquidPuppet

Here you go.

Thanks for all the help everyone. I'm going the Dremel route this afternoon.





It's #0697 . Sorry for the blur

Metacortex

Thanks! The LMxxxxxx serial indicates the frame was built in Nov. '76 however the 0697 badge no. indicates the bike was built on Thursday March 10, 1977. Since that is a '77 Varsity there would be no question about it using the 1-piece stops.

SquidPuppet

Interesting. I found it on CraigsList a few weeks ago and it was 100% showroom stock. Even had the original tires. There was no evidence of the bike being altered at all.

So what's with the discrepancy between the two numbers? Is it possible that the frame was actually made in late 76, but the bike was finished as a 77 model?

JMONAY

omg that's a BEAUTIFUL color. Always loved that green. And yes, I agree that the Dremel may be the best route. I totally forgot to mention that since I didn't bring it to college and I had to go to the metal shop and use the grinder - the Dremel is actually my favorite tool in the world.

Regarding the date, yes I would assume that's the case. The frame-building and assembly processes were probably separate, just like for cars, so they probably had stashes of frames sitting for a while that had to be made into bikes eventually. Also, how did your cable guides get like that ...?

@Metacortex if bikes were sometimes finished long after the frames were built, is it possible that there was an overlapping period where some of the newer frames with the one-piece guides were being built up along side the older ones with the two-piece guides since they may have been stored in the same area and mixed up a little? like you could find perhaps a bike with an early '76 frame date and a late '76 head badge date with two-piece guides?

Metacortex

That is more than possible, in fact it was standard procedure for Schwinn in the '60s and '70s. They would stockpile parts (including frames) needed to build various model runs in advance, then build the bikes in batches once everything was acquired. One of the biggest mistakes I see Schwinn enthusiasts/collectors make is to assume that the frame serial number accurately dates a given bike. Normally there would only be up to a month or two between frame and bike builds, but that could often be longer and for some less popular models I've documented differences of more than 6 *years*. Demonstrating this is easy for '76 and later models since that is when Schwinn began date stamping bikes on the badge with the day of production. Accurately identifying when '75 and earlier models were produced is possible but it requires more intimate knowledge of the model and original components present.

Metacortex

That is exactly why I want to know both the frame and badge numbers. I believe there was a distinct change-over from the 2-piece to 1-piece cable guides in EF frame production, however from what I've found Schwinn did not necessarily use frames in serial number order (I have found bikes with later build dates using earlier frames and vice versa). In that case there was almost certainly some overlap in the cable stops appearing on bikes being built in the months that followed. How much overlap would probably depend on the volume of production for a given model at the time.

dddd

My 1964 Varsity came to me with a broken cable stop on the left side of the lower end of the downtube, so I just ran the cable under the bb shell as shown and it looks and works fine.

Even Peugeot used spot-welded cable stops on UO-series bikes prior top the 1979 "103" frame redesign when they began brazing nicer barrel-shaped stops in place.

I also have a 1977-built Varsity with a late-1976-built frame, and the stops are paired on the top side of the downtube, which seems to leave them less vulnerable to damage while also leaving the decal un-obstructed and also perhaps lowering costs and putting a larger weld area to support any impact or stress to either stop tab.

The other common issue, with Varsity's brake cable stops, is the unusual, deep-seating ferrules which are needed to safely maintain engagement between the stops and the flanged ferrules. Very safe design that is unlikely to dislodge even with considerable cable slackening.
>>>>>So always keep these brake housing ferrules together with an electro-forged frame that is being sold, serviced or painted(!).
I.e., "Not sold in stores".