1855Cru

So fresh off of successfully completing the 52 mile BSG ride last week and feeling smug and full of myself I agreed to join some cycle buddies in doing the 65 mile Grizzly ride this coming Friday. Yesterday a few of us drove up to the mountains and drove the route to check it out. Very hilly and there is one monster Cat 1 climb that just plain scares me. The climb starts at about mile 30 and rises about 1,700 ft in just under 4 miles with an average 8.4% grade. There are many very steep (18-20%+) sections with lots of switchbacks to negotiate.

My current bike setup is a compact 50-34 crank with an 11-28 cassette, this was fine on the BSG but none of the climbs avg more than 4.4% on that ride. I really want to finish this ride without having to walk up a hill. I'm thinking about changing my cassette to an 11-32 (have to change RD too), what do you think? An other tips for handling this beast?

As a side note, it figures this was one of Lance Armstrong's favourite training routes for the TdF

Mr. Beanz

HA, not that I'm a climbing guru but I say you'll be ok. You'll be surprised that in that 4.4 average climb how many grades you hit of 12% and barely even notice it. Not that 12 is easy but you may find that the 8 isn't much tougher than the 4%. I honestly think that if you gear down, work your way into a rhythm vs racing on that section, you'll be fine. You just may find that none of your buds will be far ahead. Just be sure to keep something in the tank for that section. Plus the registered 18% are usually short 5 -10 yard sections that you only notice after you complete them.

I myself as far as gearing think you have plenty with the compact. Nothing is ever easy but you'll be fine. I'm not a super climber but I've done everything on my standard crank (39/25) including cat 1 climbs. Seeing that you are fit after completing the recent ride, I think you are quite prepared.

With your fitness and gearing, I don't think you'll need to walk.

I figure I've done similar climbs with a 42 gear inch combo, you should be fine with a 33 while being fit. If you spend the money for the new setup, that's $200 to drop from a 33 combo to a 29. I myself couldn't justify spending the dough for 4 gear inch gain for the purpose of a 4 miles section that you'll more than likely conquer anyway. I say try the ride then you'll know if it's worth a couple of bills to switch.

freighttraininguphill

If it were me doing that ride, I would want the bigger cassette. The three bikes I use solely for climbing rides are triples and have cassettes with a 34-tooth largest rear cog. One is a mtb with street tires, so it already had my desired low gears when I got it. The other two are road bikes so I had to spend about $25 for a Shimano MegaRange 11-34 cassette, $65 for a Shimano Deore long-cage mtb derailleur, and $22 for a 24-tooth small front chainring.

That's just over $100 invested, and so far I've climbed every hill I've attempted without having to walk. The steepest was a 25% grade, and I climbed it in the saddle. I have video as proof.

Another thing I noticed while looking at peoples' bikes while on climbing rides is that most of the ones I saw were triples, some with large cassettes like mine.

engstrom

I am certainly no climbing expert but I can tell you that my limited experience on hills agrees with what Beanz is saying. I was struggling, out of breath, and completely out of gas climbing a local hill a few weeks ago when Beanz words came to mind like Obi Wan telling Luke to turn off his targeting computer - "rhythm, get into a rhythm". I found that when I stopped worrying about climbing and instead focused on staying light on the pedals (more weight on the seat and bars) and having a steady slow cadence the climb became almost a breeze and I figured I could keep it up for a long time.

I'm actually looking forward to riding more hills now to use my newly acquired hill-fu.

freighttraininguphill

You and Beanz may be right. I guess I like to play it safe with my knees though. I don't want to have to mash and put too much stress on them due to not having the right gear for the terrain. I've heard of people having knee operations because they did too much mashing in the hills. IMHO, better safe than sorry.

1855Cru

I appreciate the confidence Beanz I know I am reasonably fit and I live in a very hilly area so am used to riding some decent hills but this one really messed with my mind, it was so much steeper and for so long compared to any of the other climbs I have made.

Also I tend to be more of a masher so I agree with FTU's point, I don't particularly want to drop another $250 but I don't want to do the walk of shame more!! I'm still pretty torn but maybe it is better to be safe than sorry?

freighttraininguphill

Yeah, IMHO it's better to spend a little money and get lower gearing than to end up temporarily disabled and spend much more on medical bills due to abusing the knees. Not to mention time off the bike and pain.

Just curious what would cost $250? The long-cage Shimano Deore mtb derailleur is only $65, and a Shimano MegaRange cassette should be less than $30. My first one was $22, the one after that was a few dollars more due to inflation.

1855Cru

I ride a Sram Rival setup, the RD is about $110 and the Cassette another $100 plus some for a longer chain

freighttraininguphill

Ouch! OK, that explains it. Still would be a good investment as it would allow you to climb steep hills without mashing, and it's always nice to have lower gears for those times when you're tired or having an off day.

1855Cru

Yes I think I've made a decision, I'll get the medium cage RD and 11-32 cassette just to be safe. I'll try to stay in the 28 cog for the climb but it will be nice to know I've got a little something extra if it gets too hard

freighttraininguphill

Good idea! I rarely have to use my lowest gear. The last time I used it was on June 18th when I climbed Snows Road, which is rated the toughest climb in El Dorado County. I used it so I could spin on the steepest part, as I noticed my cadence was slowing too much and I was mashing.

Mr. Beanz

I can respect your opinion and thoughts but for that much dough, I'd give it a try first. I've done some major climb with the standard cassette and NEVER had knee problems. You never know till you try. As mentioned before I bet you'll do fine so give it a try first before you drop the cash.

I have this thought that if I can't do a climb, why would I switch out my gears to do it? I'd train raising my fitness level so that I could. A walk of shame is only masked by lower gears IMO. I had a hard time climbing when I started riding, I didn't switch out my gears to complete my targeted events, I trained. I see my accomplishments as "I completed the ride" and not as " I tailored my gears in order to complete the ride" Heck, I think my grandma can complete the ride if I give her the right gears. I entered this sport to become a stronger and more fit being not to complete rides that I couldn't otherwise without special accommodations.

I know it's strange but I have the frame of mind that if I can't do a 7% then I have no business doing the climb. I'll train on the 5% climbs until I do.

I can see the point of wanting to play it safe with the knees, but if that's the case, why not avoid the steep climbs all together? If you need special accommodations to complete them, then you really shouldn't be there if the knees are a concern.

To be clear, these are my thoughts on "my climbing". Others have different opinons on theirs.

Mr. Beanz

Ha ha ha! This is the key. I used to worry about trying to keep pace with others on a ride. But after watching so many tours you realize you can be the stongest looking rider, sprinter workhorse, on the planet but when you hit the climbs, somebody is going to lose ground. Look at the pros. Sammy Sanchez (a great climber) will lose minutes to Contador on a short 2 or 3 mile climb. IMO, it's about handling the climb and not being worried about what your buds will think if you're minute behind. Especially as a clyde, being 3 or 4 mintues behind my 160 lb training partners on a 20 mile 5,000 ft climb, I don't think any of them ever thought of my performance as shameful! Too many clydes worry about shame.

1855Cru

I'm tracking with you Beanz and I agree that training for the ride is the best solution, but in this case the ride is Friday and I have committed to it. I'm not sure that I would have signed up for it at this time but it is what it is

I'm not going to back out, so I think of this as an insurance policy

Mr. Beanz

Totally understand, just trying to save you some cash. But I will say Gina rides a triple witha 32 low combo, you have a 33. She hasn't been climbing since last year (not that she ever was a good climber). Couple weeks back, she climbed a 7% 1 mile grade 20 miles into a ride, then a 14% 1/4mile grade 35 miles into the ride with her combo, not nearly as fit as you having just completed your last ride.

I'm just "thinking" that you are over "thinking" this ride.

freighttraininguphill

I'm not so sure about that. If gears were the solution to poor climbing performance, my 400 pound Clyde friend would be able to climb a steep hill, as would everyone else I know who doesn't train.

My mother injured her back climbing the short steep hill to our house when when I was a child. I was riding my bike with her. I saw it happen. She was on an old mixte frame Gitane with a standard double and was in too high of a gear. I don't remember if she was in the lowest gear or not.

She hasn't been on a bike since.

A car isn't designed to climb a hill in 5th gear. Neither is a human designed to climb a 20% grade in a 39x25 unless they're very strong.

I take listening to your body very seriously. I refuse to abuse my knees just so I can brag about climbing a hill in too high of a gear. That single-speed folding bike climb was enough. Luckily it didn't cause me any knee pain and I don't make a habit of doing stuff like that.

I am proof that you can still get stronger even with low gears. Look at all my climbing videos and Garmin data. When I posted my first sufferfest video my average heart rate was 179. After a month or two of climbing, my average heart rate on climbing rides dropped to 159. Climbing is easier now and I go faster up climbs than I did when I first started climbing again.

This is a good enough reason to have the right gears. Since the OP will most likely be doing many other climbing rides besides this one, why not have the benefit of low gears for any other steep climbs he may encounter? Not to mention off days and getting tired. It's nice to be prepared.

My Snows Road climb had sections just like the OP described. If I didn't have my low gears I still would be waiting until I was "strong enough" to climb it. Why wait? Even with my low gears, that climb was a beyotch! It is steep!

1855Cru

Beanz I appreciate you looking out for me dude

I may well be over thinking it, but that is my nature and I think I'll feel better on the ride knowing I am prepared for the worst.

Beanz and FTU, I appreciate your comments and am constantly wowed by your videos. This forum is a very cool place

freighttraininguphill

Don't worry, I over-think stuff all the time. But in this case I'm thinking of the future after the ride too. For years I've read that it isn't good for the knees to push a too-high gear for too long. It's also more efficient to spin. Heck, look at JoelS's spin in last week's climbing video.

I'm looking out for the health of your knees.

This forum really is the best. Even after I reach my weight loss goal, I'm not leaving it.

Mr. Beanz

Insurance, no problem. I just think you'll surprise yourself! Especially after posting a nice time on the last ride!

Mr. Beanz

I wonder if I'm the only one that watched that video and thought, "wow, his hips are rocking like crazy" ? Check out his hips (and the label on his cycling shorts label) compared to his two ride partners (who also have a label). I hesitate to say anything as too many riders are easily offended.

rm -rf

If you have the low gear, why not use it? I have a 34-29 low, and I was using it this week, on a 1 mile 4-5% grade. I was spinning at my usual flat road cadence, 90-95 rpm. I could do it at 75 rpm in a 34-25, but I'm best at the 90-95 range.

ZIPP2001

Hey 1855Cru !

After reading your post and the advice I don't think you'll have a problem with your present set-up. But if it give's you a wider range and allows you to spin more then go with a different gear combo. The biggest key to climbing is #1 go into it with a positive mindset, i've never met a climb I didn't like. #2 Set yourself up before the climb, get your breathing under control and into a rhythm. #3 Don't be afraid to mix it up between seated and standing climbing. I tend to lean toward standing because I enjoy pushing a larger gear than seated and spinning more. Most important enjoy yourself and once you have finished the ride you can look back on your achievement.

Rowan

I'd go with the lower cassette and RD. FWIW, there is no reason why you can't put a cheaper Shimano XT SGS (long cage) derailleur on there with a cheaper Shimano cassette just for this ride (and others).

Beanz, I could say (in a very friendly way) that by your reasoning, you should ditch your geared bikes and stick with single-speed or fixed gear for all flat and climbing rides. That is taking it to the ultimate level, of course.

Having said that, you are right to a large extent about conditioning for steeper climbs. I have a Shimano Ultegra triple on my CF rando bike, but I haven't dropped into the granny for quite a while. It does have a 32T cog on the rear... and we are cllmbing lots of hills up to five or six miles in length and at 5-10% grades. It's still nice to have the 30T granny there just in case, though, when we come across 15-18% grades that pop up occasionally around here. And it's especially useful late in long rides (200+) when the legs are really tiring.

It's just that in this case, with the ride deadline looming for the OP, I doubt that much hill training now is going to be as effective as changing out the RD and cassette.

One other little bit of advice for the OP. Keep a check on your breathing. Make an effort to avoid panting, but concentrate on exhaling as deeply as possible. The inhale will take care of itself. If you are moving to panting or quick breathes (where talking is impossible) you are likely overdoing it (especially at the bottom of a climb). Your heart rate will be way up, and you are likely going to have a huge lactic build-up in your legs that may force you to walk.

The one thing that you also need to watch is spinning way above your normal mash rate with the lower gearing. Spinning like that, unless trained for, puts an extra load on your cardio-vascular system. It is definitely an acquired response, so you need to keep a check on your push-down effort on the pedals related to your cadence and your breathing/heart rate. That rhythmic cadence will be a key.

freighttraininguphill

I'm not an expert on bike fit, but if his hips are rocking that probably means his seat may be too low.

pbd

Shop around more.

$78 Rival medium cage derailleur https://www.amazon.com/SRAM-Rival-Der.../dp/B003TIN4JY

The cassette you can get for quite a bit less than $100 as well. Keep this thread in mind when picking up an 11-32 cassette: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...tte-Comparison

For that matter, keep in mind that Apex derailleurs work just as well as Rival as well. But the $78 is a good price on the Rival derailleur anyway.