volosong

For the past month, I've been running an Ultegra 12-30 with my Dura-Ace 7900 rear derailleur and 50-34 crank on the front. I think the D/A RD is classified as a "mid cage". Most shops don't have the Ultegra 12-30 yet, but it is available. I had to reset the H and L limit screws, but otherwise, no changes. Even the chain was long enough. I picked up a second Ultegra 12-30 for my triple bike.

Acquaspin

50*12 @ 85 rpm is 27.7 mph @ 90 rpm is 29.3 mph, how long can you hold that speed for? Not long? yep, me neither, and many people in this forum, just for the weight factor, can't either. And this is 85-90 rpm which isn't high. If you're a spinner then 50*12 @ 100 rpm is 32.6 mph and @ 110 rpm is 35.9 mph. I've never met you and I'll put money on the fact that you can't even reach that speed (32-35 mph) in flat terrain (on a bicycle of course, and "flat terrain" immediately following a down hill doesn't count either) ;-).

I hear you about being spit out off the back of a paceline, it sucks (been there), but it is not due to having a compact or a standard crank, it's due to the fact that the fitness level is not yet up to par to go hang out with the fast guys...there's a thread about "how do you know you went to the wrong ride.." or something like that that illustrates with a humorous perspective that very issue.
We would both be dropped of that paceline you mentioned in your post, standard or compact crankset wouldn't matter, it's an engine problem. I'd also put money on that ;-).

I'm by no means implying that my suggestion is "the" suggestion. Opinions, nothing more nothing less.

Good luck

TrojanHorse

This should be interesting.

Homeyba

No you don't know me. I think we can make that bet. How much money do you have? While big, I have done sub 5hr 200ks, have platinum status at the Tour de Tucson as well as a few ultra-distance records. The ride in question was a moderately hilly century and the flat section was about 5 miles long 65 miles into the ride. The paceline was going 30+ full of pro, Cat1 & 2 riders. The problem was my gearing, I'm not a spinner (in-case you couldn't tell) I'm normally in the 80rpm range. 100rpm for 5 miles, even in a paceline is pushing it for me (I actually only made it about three). If I had my normal gearing I'd have a 55 or 60/11 gear and my heart rate wouldn't have shot through the roof and I would have hung with them like I have on many other occasions. I've been riding and racing for a long time, I'm pretty good about knowing who I can hang with and who I can't.

PS, BTW, my cycling resume is fairly public so if you are interested PM me and I'll forward you a link.

Acquaspin

People brought up the popcorn, might as well give them a reason to have it ;-).

Not much into internet discussions but i like trying things for the first time so I'm up for it. As for money, that's isn't an issue, fortunately, but if you want to get my money, you'll need to pull the 55 or 60/11 gear and use it ;-) ;-).

Long list of credentials, but no single mention about my statement: Can you reach 32-35 mph on a bicycle in flat terrain? Let's just assume that you can, for a short period of time, reach such speed (i'm still waiting for your confirmation of course). Such speed would be about what percentage of your riding 3%, 5%?

Now, putting that in context of the OP (after all we're here trying to give suggestions to the OP to get the best drive train for his particular riding conditions/terrain,etc): My suggestion is that given the fact that speeds above 27 mph (50*12 and assuming he's not a spinner and 85 rpm is about as high as he'd most likely go) are unlikely for his particular current riding conditions, he'd probably have little use for the standard 53, and since he stated that his issue is not enough low gears for the hills, he'd definitively benefit from a compact low 34, which would be more suitable than the low 39 of the standard(for any given cassette).
He also mentioned his cadence is between 30-40 on the steep sections of his hills, which i think is too low a cadence even for a non-spinner, that's another reason for making the compact more suitable for the job. My suggestion included a 11 or 12-34 cassette and the long cage derailleur to go with it.

What's your case for the standard ?

Mr. Beanz

I agree. I have a triple and a double. The triple switches just as good as the double. Too many riders have complained about triple issues, I say find a better mechanic.

As far as the sissy thing, I've had riders make comments like "dude, you're on a triple?" after I've caught them on a climb only to drop them like hot potatoes.

My thoughts on ego and compacts? If I feel macho I ride my standard double (39/35), forget the compact, might as well ride a triple.

paisan

The one thing I never see mentioned in these oh so often double vs triple debates is that the gear inches/gain ratios of the 30t chainring with a given cassette aren't dramatically different from a 34t using the same cassette. They are 4 gear inches (.3 gain ratio) different, the equivalent of 1gear. To get the true benefit of closer gear ratios you have to do front and rear shifts simultaneously. For those riding a triple that run through the whole 39t middle ring before shifting to the 30t inner ring, are they really getting closer gears as stated? Certainly not the dramatic difference that some would make it seem. I see some others use a smaller range cassette(11-25 vs 11-27) with the triple and this would give you closer gear ratios but it defeats the purpose of what the OP is looking for, which is gaining low end.

Additionally, for any given cassette the 30t only gives you more gear combination than is possible with a 34t. I recently tried a triple crank using a bar end shifter and to be honest the 30t was under impressive. It didn't make that much of a difference. as I said(see chart below) it only gave me one more gear. So in my opinion if you're going to go through the hassle of changing shifters, FD and cranks at least make it a noticeable difference and do as some of the other posters have and use MTB/touring cranks or swap that 30t inner ring to something smaller. You can also do as some others have posted and swap to a MTB long cage RD and go up to a 36t cassette. At the end of the day that will give you the quickest bang for your buck, but it will stretch your gears out so you may not always find the "perfect" gear.

paisan

I've never had an issue setting up triples but you do have to pay more attention to the FD angle and height than with a double. This contradicts some peoples "close enough" which is where most of the complaints stem from IMO. If you pay attention and set the FD right it is hassle free and certainly doesn't require any more attention than a double.

This reminds me of the Masochistic metric that IBOHUNT and I recently did. As we're climbing this 15%-20% hill there were 2 guys walking up who commented on our 12-36 cassettes. There we were riding this hill, they're walking and making fun of us. I turned and said "aren't you walking?" I received no response. As a matter of fact we rode past those guys walking up every hill that day only to have them pass us on the downhills. Not sure what their rush to go walk was?

Homeyba

Popcorn is good. btw, I enjoy the friendly banter. Don't worry, I wouldn't think of taking your money.
You haven't seen my credentials yet have you? Can I pull a 55 or 60/11, yeah I do it all the time, I have a 55 on my Colnago right now and a 60 on the tandem. Can I reach 30-35 in flat terrain? Absolutely, especially in a group (with the right people) which is what I was talking about. Remember I was in a rotating paceline with about 25-30 other riders. Not out there pushing the wind myself the whole way. I have done a 200k (118 miles) in 4:45, that's an average speed of 25mph. My team (4 guys) holds two transcontinental records one with an average speed of 20mph. That's 20mph for 3000miles non-stop. We averaged 26mph across Kansas, that's 400+ miles. Getting up over 30 for short periods isn't that big of a deal. %-wise, it depends on what I'm doing. Across Kansas I was in the 60/11 almost the whole way.

Regarding the big gear, I realize I'm on the fringe of cyclists here but you have to realize that I race ultra-distance races. That's my niche. If you ever go to the start of a ultra-distance race like RAAM you'll see a lot of very fast racers out there who pull very big gears. In fact, the lady who holds the solo RAAM record runs a 60/11 and she can kick my butt. There's been some research (I apologize for not looking it up) that shows that 40 to 60 rpm generates the lowest oxygen consumption for a given wattage. That doesn't mean you are going to hammer at that cadence, it's a recovery cadence. I don't have to be "on top" of that gear to use it. I can lope along at 20-26mph and actually recover on the bike. I do that a lot when I race.


He could just as easily (if he wanted to switch to a triple, which at this point he doesn't) use a 33-39-52, or a 24-33-52 with an 11-25, 11-27 or 12-27 cassette, not loose his top end and still have a tight cassette. There are a ton of options that give you as wide or wider spread of gears without the big jumps between gears. You only miss a gear when you don't have it. I use my standard on my TT bike. No big hills, up or down.

Mithrandir

ROFL. Some people are utterly clueless.

There's so much hive "thinking" in this sport, I wonder if it was simply a knee-jerk reaction. "Look he's got a big gear, he must be a weakling!" Oh well I bet they turned their computers off so the stroll wouldn't affect their fredly average speeds that they'll no doubt be bragging online about later.

TrojanHorse

Paisan, I think the point of a triple for normal use (and not just to get an extreme low gear) is that you could run say, a 11-23 on a triple, so that when you're on any given chainring you'll have a greater chance of having a cog 1 tooth larger and smaller, as opposed to the 2 and 3 tooth jumps that the rest of us are used to.

I recently changed from a 12-26 to a 11-18 and dammit if I don't miss that 16 tooth cog.

Homeyba

You do know that with a triple you are not stuck with the stock gearing??? You can run anything from 24t chainring a 60t chainring and everything in-between. True that you get the most bang for your buck out of the cassette but you can run the same cassette on the triple you run on the compact if you want. You're missing the big picture by focusing on the minutia.

paisan

Looks like you skipped a sentence when reading my response, or you just skimmed it. Either way you should read the whole post before you trash the comment. I do know that you are not stuck with stock gearing, which is why I said this:
I apologize for presenting a fact that is never mentioned during these discussions, and certainly not even hinted at in the numerous claims of closer gears with triples in this thread. Regardless if you think I'm the one focusing on minutia, which is comical after seeing some of the data presented in this thread, my point is is still valid. The only way to maximize the closer gears on a triple is if you shift both front and rear deraillers. If a rider only uses the rear to go through a range then shifts the front, are they really getting any gain?

goldfinch

Not an issue. I can go for miles and not see a car. In a 15 mile ride I might see two cars.

Homeyba

No, my apologies, I did skim past your second paragraph. I just see that argument in your first paragraph all the time and as far as I'm concerned is only valid with the tight chainring gearing you mentioned. That overlap gets spread out if you choose a wider set of chainring options. You have the same situation with overlapped gears with the compact so you aren't really gaining much there either if you run the cassette all the way to either end before shifting your front derailer. How many people do you know bother to switch between the big ring and the little ring between shifts on the cassette? With a compact or a triple?

Mithrandir

Do you mean 11-28? I've never heard of an 11-18, and assuming it exists at 8 speed, it would most definitely have a 16 cog.

paisan

Trojan, I agreee and I addressed that exact situation in my post

rdtompki

+1. I recently bought a new road bike with compact gearing and an 11-32 cassette. The resulting 34-32 is low enough for sustained climbing in the 10-12% range and I can stand/sit above that to get up most pitches. A tough ride with 100' or more per mile might warrant an 11-36. However, the compromise in any wide-spaced cassette is a significant decrease in the joy of riding flats and rollers: a slight pitch up or down, a slight change in the wind and a flick of the right hand puts all right with the world. Not so with a wider-spaced cassette.

So, I'm going to swap out the compact for a triple, switch to a 12-27 for 95% of my rides and reserve the 11-32 for big climbs. The only difficulty is that I'd like the triple to match the double and choices are limited.

To the OP - best of luck with whatever you decide.

paisan

I agree 100% that very few riders shift both front and rear deraillers at the same time which is why I brought that up. Like you, I see the triple arguments play out almost weekly and very rarely do you see the mention of changing cassettes as well. My point was that changing just the front to a triple isn't the magic answer that every one is making it out to be. Using the same cassette, the triple and compact aren't really all that much different. Where the triple shines through over the compact is that you have the option as you mentioned in an earlier post to swap rings and with a change of cassettes you can tighten up the gear ratios and still get a lower gear. But yours was the only post to make this point. All of the other pro triple arguments are simply "swap to triple cranks and win" posts.

For the record I'm not a proponent of either a triple or compact. I run both, and personally think the right answer to optimize gears is dependant on course, rider and funds available. I usually run a compact crank but currently have a heavily modified triple set up on my bike now for the mountain mama(100miles-13,800' of gain) that we are doing next weekend.

My current triple set up is an old 8 spd 112bcd M950 XTR crankset that I put a middleburn 104/64 BCD adaptor on with 48-34-24t 9/10 speed 4 arm rings. For chainline reasons I used an Ultegra 109mm V1 octalink bottom bracket. Because I have a carbon framed bike and needed a braze on FD I modded my SRAM apex FD to work with the triple. Why mod my FD? well the Shimano triple FD I have has a large knuckle for the spring and would only clear my frame using a 118mm BB. That 118mm combined with the wider MTB cranks made my chainline ridiculous and the bike would ghost shift down if I went too high on the cassette. I also tried some older Ultegra and Dura-ace FD's I have laying around but they are designed to work with 38t as the lowest gear so they would shift the chain to the 24 but couldnt pick it back up to the 34. Since the Apex is a compact FD the inner plate sits lower much like a triple FD and works with the wider gear jump and lower gears, but it only had enough movement for 2 rings. So, I figured out what SRAM used to limit the movement and modified it and it now works with a triple. Keep in mind I am using a bar end shifter because I dont have triple STI shifters. This set up would never work with STI, for that I would have to use a shimano compact FD and shimano triple STI shifters. After MTN Mama I intend to leave the octalink BB, modified apex FD and bar end shifter installed because I will have the ability to just swap cranks between the triple, compact and standard cranks to match any course I may need to.

paisan

I'm assuming you mean keep the 34/50 with a smaller 24-22 triple ring also? MTB cranksets will work or if you got some extra scratch check out the Middleburn cranks at MTBTandems.com. You can build them any way you want and the spiders are interchangeable so you can have a compact, triple or std crank set using only 1 set of arms by just swapping the whole spider out. The only issue I could see you running into is if you have a braze on only FD like I have on my Ruobaix. See my post above, finding a FD to work with my set up was a process of elimination and instead of buying a new one which may/may not have worked I modified an existing one I had laying around. If your frame uses a clamp on FD then all is good, just use a MTB FD as someone posted earlier in this thread.

Mithrandir

Yeah no. My very first post I tossed out that I preferred mountain bike triple gearing as an alternative, since, you know, we're climbing mountains and hills.


I've always been a strong advocate of mountain bike gearing on road bikes. Tourists use it all the time, and if there's two groups of cyclists that share similar characteristics, it's clydes and tourists. The primary difference is that they carry camping gear, whereas we carry adipose, in similar masses.

Hell, I weigh more than most fully loaded tourist rigs, and so do a lot of people here. There's no shame in MTB gearing.

rdtompki

I should have been clearer in my post. I've got an FSA K-force light double (BB30). I'm fine with a 50-40-30 triple, no need to go lower, but the "same" triple is $$. I can go with other triples and use an adapter; I'll probably go this way.

paisan

I stand corrected, well actually there was 1 more post because someone posted pictures of thier bike with an XT crank on it. But you get what I'm saying. The whole "swap to a triple and win" scenario isn't entirely true unless you swap to a gear significantly lower than a compact(as mtb and touring cranks do) or you change chainrings on the triple. A simple swap to a 52-39-30 isn't the end all that most would have us believe because it's really not much different than the compact. It's only 1 gear closer in spacing and 1 gear more in range, and definately not the earth shattering climb every mountain that you can't climb with a compact as some people say.

Mr. Beanz

Zactly!

Homeyba

We are pretty close in our thinking and you are so right that the answer is rarely just throwing on a compact or a triple. There are so many choices and options out there it isn't even funny. That's why people really need to take a look at themselves and decide what they are doing and what they want to get out of their cycling before they just jump out there and spend a bunch of money. Ideally everyone would own several bikes with different set-ups and a box of chainrings and cassettes to mix and match with. That'd probably be too much trouble for most people though.


That's a rather ingenious solution. I have three different bikes. I've never tried to use a mtn bike crank because a 24 fits on both my Tru-Vativ and FSA cranks with an Ultegra (2006-8 6700) triple FD. Does your bike have an odd shaped seat tube that the shimano FD won't clear it?