unterhausen

just don't slow down too fast, the morons behind you would pile into your rear wheel. The truth is that a lot of pacelines are inhabited by people that shouldn't be in them. Nobody feels responsible for disciplining other cyclists <<old man emoticon>> why in my day, there would be hell to pay for rudeness and stupidity like the OP experienced.

Piles of idiots, sorta like this video
https://youtu.be/eTTGroH8BZI

alan s 

I've ridden in plenty of pacelines, and agree that passing slower non-paceline riders should be done safely by calling out "rider up." However, the OP asked specifically about the 3-foot rule, and whether it should apply. The answer is no. The passed rider should be given enough room based on the circumstances, which may be more or less than 3 feet. If a paceline is moving at 25 mph, and passing a slower rider moving at 10 mph, more room is necessary. If the speeds are more equal, as in the case of the OP, then less room is needed.

kickstart

Safely? maybe, but too often its barked out as a rude demand in the same way a motorists barks out "get off the road". Some paceline riders take themselves way too seriously.

Leisesturm

If you've ever paced off three feet you will see that it is a tremendous distance and not really practical in many places. It has been established as an overreaction to the unreasonable fear so many cyclists have of vehicle traffic. Vehicle traffic. Traffic that is, in many cases, passing the cyclist at speeds of up to 50mph. In most of Europe vehicle traffic is not allowed to pass cyclists any faster than 20mph. No matter what the speed limit on that road is, if you are overtaking a cyclist you must slow to 20mph. No need to give exessive amounts of clearance passing cyclists when you have met them halfway by reducing your speed so much. Which is essentially what the paceline is. A large vehicle moving at a rather low speed relative to the cyclist that is being passed. 3' passing distance? Really? I don't think so.

As this thread continues, what I am picking up is the attitude by most that pacelines consist of arrogant, narcissist jerks. 80% of this is because they are faster and the other 20% is because they are fitter. I was once riding across a bridge with a raised pedestrian walkway next to the bike lane which was a road level. The "curb" was about 6" high. The cyclist ahead of me saw a road hazard and without any apparent effort hopped his bike sideways onto the walkway went past the pothole and hopped back down without losing a single mile per hour of speed.

You guys worry way too much. Almost every single one of your concerns that you have about being out there among the heathen could be eliminated by taking your bikehandling skills to the next, or next after that, skill level. This forum had got so depressing I had stopped posting. The thread that gave me hope and got me back was the "Anybody NEVER been hit thread". It was so uplifting to see that there are lots of cyclists who have ridden a long time without multiple collisions and accidents. Sadly, they don't get the most space here on a regular basis.

FBinNY 

Those cyclists who ride for eons without an accident are below the radar because there's no reason to notice or think about them. We're like all the dogs that haven't bitten a child, children that were never abused by their parents, and all other categories of mainstream groups that don't do or suffer anything worth taking about.

But, YES, bicycling is safe, with reasonable care and awareness, and anybody who doubts this, should talk to life insurance actuaries who know that cyclists live longer (on average) even after allowing for those who die in crashes.

Looking back on almost 50 years of riding, I also get frustrated. Back when I started, it took plenty of convincing to tell parents and others that bicycle touring was safe. Over time that became an accepted fact, and we no longer faced that hurdle. But these days bicycle "advocates" are front and center promoting the myth that it's dangerous. That more than anything else is why I parted company with the advocacy movement years ago.

Hugh Morris

Your age is showing. Defensive cycling can be learned but some people have different capacities for quick-wittedness; saying that millenials ride like cows is ignoring both the swath of old folks who can't ride with common sense and the many young folks who can. It's not that black and white and maybe your area has different trends than mine, but the worst behaved cyclists I see in Boston are often middle-aged, low-income workers weaving around on old mountain bikes (often with plastic bags on the handlebars). No disrespect intended, just what I observe on my specific stretches of road. Well, also the hubway bike share riders can be clueless too.

i did recently see a college kid with no business on the roads get doored lightly in his back wheel as he was riding very close to parked cars with an empty lane to his left. After getting tapped but staying on the saddle, he proceeded to lock both wheels and wiggle a bit before going over the handlebars. The situation was avoidable, and when it happened, could've been handled without any kind of dismount. Do I think it's the fault of when he was born? No, i think this kid just did not have much capacity for quick-wittedness, nor the appropriate skill set to be riding in the city. Can he learn the skills? Yes. Will he ever sport cat-like reflexes? I don't think so; guy was NOT coordinated. ...he got up and apologized PROFUSELY to the driver who was baffled at the lack of confrontation.

...I tend to take the full lane to pass cyclists when possible because holding a line seems to be low on the list of other cyclists' priorities, and spooking a less experienced rider does no one any good.

velocity

Was the OP in a Event ride? - a pace line is not something I see on my commutes. Did someone not say on yur left? Also you have hand signals to use if you need to get out of the way of debris. Then, I wonder, could you have not inserted yourself in the pace line that was going that slow? Sometimes you have to be aggressive in your riding. If you were in an event after they had passed grab ahold of the last guy and enjoy the pull.
V

CliffordK

Pacing off 3 feet... that is about ONE STEP.

Or, I think of it as the distance from the tip of my nose to the tip of my finger with an outstretched arm. Add a foot or so for half the body width, and one gets the vehicle just far enough away that it won't take off a hand if one signals for a left hand turn.

I think Oregon's law states the passing distance should be far enough that if the bike falls over, it won't be hit, which is a bit of an odd way of looking at it as I'm never riding along, then just fall over. But, it should give 4 or 5 feet of clearance.

Anyway, I like the idea of slowing down to pass... but it all should be a bit subjective which is hard to put into the laws...

Give me 50 feet of clearance, and I don't care if Mario Andretti passes me at 200 MPH.
10 or 12 feet, and a 60 MPH pass should be fine... perhaps even a bit closer.
3 foot brush-by, and get the speed mighty low.

The paceline and large bicycle groups is a bit odd.... In a sense, it would be like a truck pulling 10 trailers behind it... Are the riders in back looking around, or just looking at the tire in front of them? It would be easy to imagine the rear of the line wouldn't react the same way as the front... even in a perfect rotation where all riders eventually spend some time at the front. Do they call out to each other when passing a bike?

fietsbob

Watching the stage 9 TdF.

Seems the rider ending their Pull at the front does pull out wide to let the rest pass them before falling in Behind the others again.



Myself [67] I dont do club rides , there are none here, now .

and when there were it was all Testosterone fueled and about dropping people off the back,
showing off, not being social.

alan s 

You pull off the front wide in a race if you are done racing to get out of the way. If riding in a rotating paceline, staying in close as you rotate to the back provides some aero benefit (particularly with a crosswind), and allows you to hop on the wheel of the last rider more easily. You'll see this in a breakaway. Also allows cars to get around more easily.

kickstart

The few I did were supposedly easy rides that still turned into d swinging contest. What was really amusing, how many of the riders felt the need to say "I normally ride with faster groups, but today I....,.".

fietsbob

Had a friendly cycling group leader was a school teacher many of the others were workers at some of the SF Hotels ,
back in the 80's ... Group Mixed Genders .. (But one or the other )

I rode in the middle of a Bike tour and met a group thru an acquaintance for a day ride out into Northumbria, Newcastle on Tyne

some one would drop back to keep me company .. ( Didn't bring my Panniers , but I was on My Touring Bike )

tjspiel

On my favorite group ride, the leader always gave us the talk about obeying traffic laws and being courteous to other riders. The shop employees that were along and several other riders wore the shop kit so they didn't want their good name tarnished by scofflaw cyclists.

That doesn't mean that the letter of the law was always followed or that some other riders like the OP couldn't have felt similarly uncomfortable while being passed by the group. I would never pass anyone closer than I would feel comfortable being passed but at the same time I've never been caught between the curb and a long line of cyclists riding wheel to wheel (unless I was in a group ride at the time).

Personally, I'd rather that they did not slow down and passed me as quickly as possible.

While on a commute once, I did pass someone closer than they liked (on my bike) and they gave me an earful. I felt like crap and learned from it.

To answer the question, No, I don't think they need to give a full 3 feet but I do feel they need to give adequate room and recognize that not everyone is as comfortable riding in close quarters as they are.

In general I believe we were pretty good. People we passed had a variety of reactions. Some would try to ride faster or keep up. Others seemed surprised. A few would join us. Mostly people ignored us.

When someone on a group ride yells "Rider Up!", it's just to make everyone in the group aware that there's a cyclist to watch out for. It's not a command for the other rider any more than "Car Back!" is directed at the driver. In large groups it will get repeated up or down the line.

I'm sure there is some group dynamics going on where some will feel more powerful (for lack of a better word) in a group like that than they would on their own.

kickstart

;I've heard it, and observed the accompanying behavior enough that there's no doubt its sometimes used with dual intent. Large groups seem to usually be well behaved, but some small groups can be downright hostile.

tjspiel

In a paceline if you're not in front you're on somebody's wheel which means the view is pretty restricted even if you're looking up.

People will say "Rider Up!" to let the folks behind them know that they're about to pass a cyclist. Otherwise you may not see them until you're right on top of them. In large pacelines, "Rider Up!" will get repeated down the line. There are also hand signals to point out road hazaards, to indicate that the group is slowing, etc.

tjspiel

That's unfortunate. I'm not sure what someone in a group would expect yelling at a solo rider to accomplish.

ThermionicScott 

Maybe it's because I've never seen a paceline in CR's bike lanes, but I'm having trouble imagining why a fast-moving paceline would feel the need to stay so strictly within the bike lane.

genec

The difference between crashing into another human body and and about 20 lbs of metal verses being sideswiped by a nearly all metal object weighing in at 3000+lbs is night and day... that said however, I believe the pace line should have acted with more courtesy to a fellow cyclist and given more room.

kickstart

Its not what I would call common, but the obvious intent is to get others to make way so they don't need to break pace. One would think if a group chooses to use trails or roads that are popular with recreational cyclists, pedestrians, and runners, they would tune down their expectations, and tune up their courtesy.

tjspiel

I've never been in a paceline that did feel that need. It is very much a follow the leader activity. It sounds like the first rider was courteous and gave lots of room but the following riders didn't.

It just takes one person getting lazy or not paying attention to not move far enough. The rider behind them will likely take the same line as the miscreant because they won't see the solo rider soon enough to give them a wider berth.

I could also see this happening if a car is approaching from behind and the people in the paceline are reluctant to move too far into traffic. Let's say part of the group safely and courteously passed the solo rider, and then a car approached from behind. It's not hard to imagine the rest of the group trying to squeeze by rather than waiting behind the solo rider. Separation is something that pacelines like to avoid, even if they should.

kickstart

There may or may not be a difference in the sideswipe between the 2, but hitting a curb at 10 or 15 mph afterwards will play out the same, and I'll pass on both.

cooker

Yes, every cyclist should upgrade their skills to an advanced level in case they are boxed in by faster riders and expected to hop the curb at speed to avoid an obstacle and a crash. Right.

Leisesturm

Yes, right.

Leisesturm

I am having trouble with that also. In fact, I don't know that the o.p. said that that was the case. I mean... the lane was 4' wide. Pretty wide as bike lanes go. If its anything like our group rides some riders would be in the lane and some out. A single long string of bikes is just not how pacelines usually operate.

Leisesturm

I'm like that. Both of us need thicker skins. Some cyclists aren't happy unless you cross into oncoming traffic and are killed. Then they will call you an idiot for not just sitting behind them since they were going plenty fast enough for anyone. I never got passed until I moved into the city (Portland). Most passes take place with less than a foot between me and the passing rider. I really don't expect more. From a car I'd like more. From another cyclist. No. If I were walking on the sidewalk I wouldn't expect other pedestrians to pass 3 feet away. I really hate to #$% all over the egos in the room but, cycling is way closer to walking in terms of speeds than motor traffic. You are maybe 3x the speed of a fast walker and 2x the speed of a runner.