Good Article About Judgement & Snobbishness Among Cyclists
#1
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Good Article About Judgement & Snobbishness Among Cyclists
Just about every thread in every bicycling forum eventually ends up being a pissing contest over who is a real bicyclist, what is a real bicycle, etc. This article from Bicycle Times, while not the final word, does a good job at opening up the conversation as to WHY we need to be so critical of each other...
Opinion: Plenty of pie for all
Opinion: Plenty of pie for all
Last edited by Papa Tom; 01-07-16 at 08:01 PM.
#2
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Financially privileged? To ride a bike? If you can't afford a bike, even a beater that your neighbour is throwing out, you wouldn't be able to afford a car. Lots of younger people I know are choosing public transit over the automobile, nowadays. So to each his own.
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I thought the article was a bit over the top (I don't know if cyclists are that judgmental) but it made a good point about e bikes. They have a lot of promise in expanding the number of people who cycle and that is, I think, a good thing.
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Only on the Road Forum do I see this so-called elitist attitude. The vast majority of cyclists just ride their bikes and don't come on a forum to talk about frame stiffness, 11 vs 10 speed, or achieving kom on strava.
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Electric Scooters are NOT bicycles in any shape or form. SORRY BUD. Nice try. No more than electric chair devices. Take your inclusion delusion someplace else.
I won't, however, complain at all if they take the place of CARS on the road. They are government over-regulated under powered motor cycles. So wussy they kind of fit in on MUPs.
E-assist is a different story.
Bicycles are human powered. What the hell is elitist about that ??? Why don't we all drive a Rolls Royce ???
I won't, however, complain at all if they take the place of CARS on the road. They are government over-regulated under powered motor cycles. So wussy they kind of fit in on MUPs.
E-assist is a different story.
Bicycles are human powered. What the hell is elitist about that ??? Why don't we all drive a Rolls Royce ???
Last edited by GamblerGORD53; 12-31-15 at 12:15 AM.
#7
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Ya know, I wasn't sure which bike forum to post this thread on. I just think that, of all cyclists, commuting cyclists are the least "snobbish" about cycling. That's why I thought you all would appreciate the article.
I, personally, cannot have a conversation about bicycling here in New York without it turning into a contest about who rides further, who has more electronic chatchkes attached to their handlebars, and how you absolutely need special pedals and clips on your shoes to ride a bicycle. Perhaps this laughable type of rivalry doesn't exist where you live, but I don't think the author's point-of-view is purely personal.
Most people on this particular bike forum ride WHAT they like and HOW they like. But I'm telling you, you'd be amazed at what so many roadies and mountain bikers think about cyclists like us.
I, personally, cannot have a conversation about bicycling here in New York without it turning into a contest about who rides further, who has more electronic chatchkes attached to their handlebars, and how you absolutely need special pedals and clips on your shoes to ride a bicycle. Perhaps this laughable type of rivalry doesn't exist where you live, but I don't think the author's point-of-view is purely personal.
Most people on this particular bike forum ride WHAT they like and HOW they like. But I'm telling you, you'd be amazed at what so many roadies and mountain bikers think about cyclists like us.
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There is a bike store like that in my town.
In order to be worthy of their attention, you have to have a bike that cost at least $3000 that you bought from them.
$3K is the entry level - where they treat you like pond scum instead of just ignoring you. If you want them to be nice, it's going to cost at least $5k.
They do have MTBs and hybrids and all kinds of bikes in the store, but apparently only to scoff at, because only road bikes count.
I was actually in the store, speaking to one of the sales people, and preparing to order a replacement wheel for the hybrid I had purchased from them (the OEM wheels were crap, and the rear did not stand up to use), and the owner of the store comes up and tells me he needs the salesman for unloading a truck and I am welcome to come back another day. "Thank you, I will never come back," was my reply. I actually broke that vow about five years later. They'd moved to a new building in a very posh shopping center. I was out on a ride and needed something basic, which of course they did not have.
Since then I've purchased a road bike, a touring bike, and a tri bike - all from other stores. I can't imagine how this business model is working for them, but apparently it is.
In order to be worthy of their attention, you have to have a bike that cost at least $3000 that you bought from them.
$3K is the entry level - where they treat you like pond scum instead of just ignoring you. If you want them to be nice, it's going to cost at least $5k.
They do have MTBs and hybrids and all kinds of bikes in the store, but apparently only to scoff at, because only road bikes count.
I was actually in the store, speaking to one of the sales people, and preparing to order a replacement wheel for the hybrid I had purchased from them (the OEM wheels were crap, and the rear did not stand up to use), and the owner of the store comes up and tells me he needs the salesman for unloading a truck and I am welcome to come back another day. "Thank you, I will never come back," was my reply. I actually broke that vow about five years later. They'd moved to a new building in a very posh shopping center. I was out on a ride and needed something basic, which of course they did not have.
Since then I've purchased a road bike, a touring bike, and a tri bike - all from other stores. I can't imagine how this business model is working for them, but apparently it is.
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Just about every thread in every bicycling forum eventually ends up being a pissing contest over who is a real bicyclist, what is a real bicycle, etc. This article from Bicycle Times, while not the final word, does a good job at opening up the conversation as to WHY we need to be so critical of each other...
Opinion: Plenty of pie for all
Opinion: Plenty of pie for all
… I was thinking about how the way most folks refer to cycling - riding a bike or biking - are just inadequate words to describe how I think or feel about what I am doing. Riding a bike seems to be more about getting from here to there, while cycling seems to be about being on the bike. It doesn't really matter where I go, how far I go, or how long it takes me as it does about the experience itself. Of course, the cliche' comes to mind: it's not about the destination, but he journey, but sometimes cliche's are apt, and I think cycling embodies that in a way few other activities do…
Just last week I was discussing cycling, while riding with a “roadie” Bike Forums subscriber I had recently met, and I was somehow prompted to comment that I posted more to BF as an experience than about the technical or mechanical aspects of cycling. So in considering your post, my first thought was I think I see the distinction you are drawing, but then thought it seems to hint a bit of elitism…I am a real cyclist; the others are just riding their bikes, though I presume that was not the intent.
So for example, are the subscribers who post to C&V, or Bicycle Mechanics and rave about parts and models real cyclists? Or are cycle commuters who slog through urban environments constantly on the alert for danger, real cyclists? Or Adovocacy&Safety and Living Car Free subscribers who advocate on behalf of cycling, really cyclists?...
But to get back to the immediate experience you described, as I understand it, I describe to myself as “becoming one with the bike.” I'll leave the roadie vs Fred distinction for my previous "Fred Manifesto".
So for example, are the subscribers who post to C&V, or Bicycle Mechanics and rave about parts and models real cyclists? Or are cycle commuters who slog through urban environments constantly on the alert for danger, real cyclists? Or Adovocacy&Safety and Living Car Free subscribers who advocate on behalf of cycling, really cyclists?...
But to get back to the immediate experience you described, as I understand it, I describe to myself as “becoming one with the bike.” I'll leave the roadie vs Fred distinction for my previous "Fred Manifesto".
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@alathIN: That's unfortunate about the bike store. Obviously they have enough 'elitist' clientelle that they don't need the likes of you or I with our hybrids, fenders, and racks.
@Papa Tom: I was just thinking the same thing about the Commuting Forum. We are more utilitarian than elitist. That may have something to do with the fact that we are all combating common foes--road conditions, darkness, cold, snow, ice, rain, etc.
I will concede, though, that much (but not all) of the elitist chatter on the Road Forum is done very much tongue-in-cheek.
@Papa Tom: I was just thinking the same thing about the Commuting Forum. We are more utilitarian than elitist. That may have something to do with the fact that we are all combating common foes--road conditions, darkness, cold, snow, ice, rain, etc.
I will concede, though, that much (but not all) of the elitist chatter on the Road Forum is done very much tongue-in-cheek.
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I find it interesting that the very magazine, or similar, that perpetuates that idea of elitism among cyclists is writing an essay dispelling it.
I don't subscribe to any of the cycling mags, but have on a few occasions perused them at the bookstore. Their idea of a 'cheap' bike is one that costs $1K.
I don't subscribe to any of the cycling mags, but have on a few occasions perused them at the bookstore. Their idea of a 'cheap' bike is one that costs $1K.
#12
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I think the real issue is a lot of the insecurity of new cyclists who will read into any action or comment. If you're looking for it, you'll find it.
A few times, when attending a group ride, I show up, unload my road bike from the car and someone will inevitably say something akin to "so I suppose that you're better than us."
One older lady was staring me down with a scowl and muttered to her friend (?) "friggin' road bikers think they're so special."
I didn't say a word, didn't do a thing...that I know of.
A few times, when attending a group ride, I show up, unload my road bike from the car and someone will inevitably say something akin to "so I suppose that you're better than us."
One older lady was staring me down with a scowl and muttered to her friend (?) "friggin' road bikers think they're so special."
I didn't say a word, didn't do a thing...that I know of.
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I find it interesting that the very magazine, or similar, that perpetuates that idea of elitism among cyclists is writing an essay dispelling it.
I don't subscribe to any of the cycling mags, but have on a few occasions perused them at the bookstore. Their idea of a 'cheap' bike is one that costs $1K.
I don't subscribe to any of the cycling mags, but have on a few occasions perused them at the bookstore. Their idea of a 'cheap' bike is one that costs $1K.
Bicycling Times sponsored an Adventure Fest in Pennsylvania this October attended by a few subscibers of the Fifty-Plus Forum, that I thought was quite egalitarian.
…This was the first one presented by Bicycle Times and they did a great job. It was like a festive religious retreat for zealous cyclists. The Resort was a very convenient focus, set on a scenic lake with a MUP lined with knowledgeable vendors, who freely chatted and gave advice. I even bought myself a seat bag with features I have been seeking for months…
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 12-31-15 at 09:21 AM.
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I find it interesting that the very magazine, or similar, that perpetuates that idea of elitism among cyclists is writing an essay dispelling it.
I don't subscribe to any of the cycling mags, but have on a few occasions perused them at the bookstore. Their idea of a 'cheap' bike is one that costs $1K.
I don't subscribe to any of the cycling mags, but have on a few occasions perused them at the bookstore. Their idea of a 'cheap' bike is one that costs $1K.
The pictures look like the bikes sold only at LBS that cater to the Real Cyclists™ who subscribe to the Bicycle Times.
Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 12-31-15 at 09:45 AM.
#15
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Originally Posted by The original article
We need to recognize that by being able to participate in this activity we are physically, financially and socially privileged—that is really our identity.
you can get a no-frills hybrid at walmart for 100 bucks. you could even score a used trek, giant, or other name brand hybrid for the same price at the local bike co-op.
you don't need a $4,000 carbon fiber wonder-toy, lycra body suits, and a club for group rides to ride a bicycle. all you need is a bicycle.
but enthusiasts (of all stripes) are famous for overthinking the simplest of things.
Last edited by Steely Dan; 12-31-15 at 10:02 AM.
#16
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In a way, I guess I do feel smug about cycling to work. I am doing something a lot of people aren't because they think they can't. I've been in their shoes as I no longer have very young kids to drive around.
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I may be too old and experienced but I didn't think the article was good. It was a rambling bunch of assumptions and statements trying to make a point that failed. We are all elitists, bikes, cars, food, art, who we know, what we know, our jobs, etc. The real issue not addressed is the societal one of acceptance. We are less accepting than we use to be. Sure there were some significant unacceptable issues of the past, but now it is broken down to smaller groups.
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i attempt to go beyond this understanding from non cyclists. i have had friends say they want to ride but are afraid to. I say i will ride with you they are surprised. If I ride with a slower rider and we are riding together, I will ride my motobecane with fenders and a rack at whatever speed the person I am riding with wants. I will ride it fast with my friend who says he tired and wants to take it easy but then cranks it. I will ride my road bike on charity rides with the weekend warriors and especially this year since I have some good mileage so I will ride fast because the motor is more important to a point than the bike.
I say hi to people when I pass them either on the street, at bus stops, or on group rides.
i think that it is being friendly is key. I think that if the person is on a bike then we have something in common.
I say hi to people when I pass them either on the street, at bus stops, or on group rides.
i think that it is being friendly is key. I think that if the person is on a bike then we have something in common.
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Except in the 50+ forum where you could conceivably have an actual pissing contest (at least amongst the men) to see who's prostate gland is still in decent shape.
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We have our elitist moments also, as commuter/enthusiasts. We can get so enamored of our various accessories that we believe that they are essential, and must be of some minimal quality even.
But for the most part I don't think so. There's another guy who commutes to the offices where I work, and I'm more impressed by his old entry level Trek, milk carton and all, than the carbon/ultegra Bottecchia that he rides when the weather is nice. Though both are really nice bikes for their respective purpose. So our local "commuting community" between the two of us represents the old hard-tail, the nice road bike, unrepentant "fred" and fender-lights-rack type (me), more traditional road bike and a more outlandish bike (also me). We don't have much leeway for elitism.
But for the most part I don't think so. There's another guy who commutes to the offices where I work, and I'm more impressed by his old entry level Trek, milk carton and all, than the carbon/ultegra Bottecchia that he rides when the weather is nice. Though both are really nice bikes for their respective purpose. So our local "commuting community" between the two of us represents the old hard-tail, the nice road bike, unrepentant "fred" and fender-lights-rack type (me), more traditional road bike and a more outlandish bike (also me). We don't have much leeway for elitism.
#21
glorified 5954
After reading this tread, I realize how lucky I am. I love riding my bikes and working on them. Simple.
#22
glorified 5954
We have our elitist moments also, as commuter/enthusiasts. We can get so enamored of our various accessories that we believe that they are essential, and must be of some minimal quality even.
But for the most part I don't think so. There's another guy who commutes to the offices where I work, and I'm more impressed by his old entry level Trek, milk carton and all, than the carbon/ultegra Bottecchia that he rides when the weather is nice. Though both are really nice bikes for their respective purpose. So our local "commuting community" between the two of us represents the old hard-tail, the nice road bike, unrepentant "fred" and fender-lights-rack type (me), more traditional road bike and a more outlandish bike (also me). We don't have much leeway for elitism.
But for the most part I don't think so. There's another guy who commutes to the offices where I work, and I'm more impressed by his old entry level Trek, milk carton and all, than the carbon/ultegra Bottecchia that he rides when the weather is nice. Though both are really nice bikes for their respective purpose. So our local "commuting community" between the two of us represents the old hard-tail, the nice road bike, unrepentant "fred" and fender-lights-rack type (me), more traditional road bike and a more outlandish bike (also me). We don't have much leeway for elitism.
#23
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After reading that article several times, it seems to me that the author is the one displaying astounding elitism. Ms. Schwinn asserts that the argument that "E-bikes aren't real bicycles" is laughable. What I find laughable is the idea that words have no meaning. A bicycle is a human powered vehicle. An E-bike is a motorized vehicle. It is a pretty clear, simple, distinction.
I would not consider myself elitist about what I consider a bicycle. Here is a partial list of what I consider bicycles: Carbon fiber road bike, 29er Mtn bike, steel road bike, hybrids, department store bike shaped object, 26" mtb bike, 27.5" mtb bike, 1940s balloon tire cruiser, turn of the century track bike, 1880s high wheel ordinary, the hobby horse, my son's trike, hightech trikes, recumbents, tandems, the vehicles at the IHPVA races. All HUMAN powered.
On the other hand, you have motorized vehicles. Starting on the low and slow end with segways, Electric scooters, E-bikes, mopeds, scooters, 50cc motorcycles, 100cc motorcyles, 250cc motorcycles, high performance electric motorcycles. All rely on MOTORS.
And the idea that old people need motors to ride their bicycles off road? Give me a break. I'm sorry your body is not up to it anymore, but there are no guarantees in life. I'd love to run another marathon, but I'm pretty sure my knee won't let me. Does that mean I get to use a motorized assist? Hell no. It means my marathon days are over.
"But the U.S. has been much slower to pick up the technology, partially because of the aggressive backlash of self-identified “cyclists.”" No, I don't think so. I'm probably not going to buy an e-bike, but if you want to buy one, knock yourself out. I'm not standing in front of the e-bike shop preventing customers from entering.
I would not consider myself elitist about what I consider a bicycle. Here is a partial list of what I consider bicycles: Carbon fiber road bike, 29er Mtn bike, steel road bike, hybrids, department store bike shaped object, 26" mtb bike, 27.5" mtb bike, 1940s balloon tire cruiser, turn of the century track bike, 1880s high wheel ordinary, the hobby horse, my son's trike, hightech trikes, recumbents, tandems, the vehicles at the IHPVA races. All HUMAN powered.
On the other hand, you have motorized vehicles. Starting on the low and slow end with segways, Electric scooters, E-bikes, mopeds, scooters, 50cc motorcycles, 100cc motorcyles, 250cc motorcycles, high performance electric motorcycles. All rely on MOTORS.
And the idea that old people need motors to ride their bicycles off road? Give me a break. I'm sorry your body is not up to it anymore, but there are no guarantees in life. I'd love to run another marathon, but I'm pretty sure my knee won't let me. Does that mean I get to use a motorized assist? Hell no. It means my marathon days are over.
"But the U.S. has been much slower to pick up the technology, partially because of the aggressive backlash of self-identified “cyclists.”" No, I don't think so. I'm probably not going to buy an e-bike, but if you want to buy one, knock yourself out. I'm not standing in front of the e-bike shop preventing customers from entering.
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After reading that article several times, it seems to me that the author is the one displaying astounding elitism. Ms. Schwinn asserts that the argument that "E-bikes aren't real bicycles" is laughable. What I find laughable is the idea that words have no meaning. A bicycle is a human powered vehicle. An E-bike is a motorized vehicle. It is a pretty clear, simple, distinction.
#25
glorified 5954
Ha!
And the idea that old people need motors to ride their bicycles off road? Give me a break. I'm sorry your body is not up to it anymore, but there are no guarantees in life. I'd love to run another marathon, but I'm pretty sure my knee won't let me. Does that mean I get to use a motorized assist? Hell no. It means my marathon days are over.
"But the U.S. has been much slower to pick up the technology, partially because of the aggressive backlash of self-identified “cyclists.”" No, I don't think so. I'm probably not going to buy an e-bike, but if you want to buy one, knock yourself out. I'm not standing in front of the e-bike shop preventing customers from entering.
"But the U.S. has been much slower to pick up the technology, partially because of the aggressive backlash of self-identified “cyclists.”" No, I don't think so. I'm probably not going to buy an e-bike, but if you want to buy one, knock yourself out. I'm not standing in front of the e-bike shop preventing customers from entering.