Was in Europe/Germany--Commuting Observations
04-29-16 | 09:44 AM
#26
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Almost all bikes had chain guards, even the relatively small number of derailleur equipped bikes used for commuting. I left Europe in 2002, and except for one 2 week vacation in NL, France and Germany in 2011 haven't been back, so I am not current with popularity of the newer belt drive bikes. I would be surprised if many European commuters would be impressed with the hyped "advantages" of belt drive over chain driven bikes.
04-29-16 | 10:08 AM
#27
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From: Kota, Aichi, Japan
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Japan is similar, so many people commuting on Dutch style bikes. If you were visiting here you might miss the road bikes. The thing is most people commuting here are doing under three miles to a train station or high school. However, on the weekend there are a lot of guys out on their race bikes enjoying themselves.
In America there aren't many people using bikes to commute, or those who do are going further, so it seems like there are more people out in spandex.
In America there aren't many people using bikes to commute, or those who do are going further, so it seems like there are more people out in spandex.
04-29-16 | 10:17 AM
#28
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Especially if/when bikes parked outside restaurants kitchens, car washes, day worker pickup points and other low wage locations, and the people who ride them daily, are invisible to enthusiastic sport cyclists.
04-29-16 | 11:05 AM
#29
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I think commute distance and terrain/weather are major factors in the lack of lycra you see. While 20+km commutes might be rare in North America too, I think in general regular bike commuters in NA are going much further than most people in Berlin or Amsterdam. Also, while travelling through Belgium, I didn't see too many hills (basically zero) and the weather was quite pleasant (in late August). I'm sure you don't see too many Amsterdam commuters with balaclavas, booties and poagies in December either. Just not necessary. But you'll see that in Canada in December. I still don't understand the appeal of messenger bags for regular commuters though. Seems like mainly a fashion thing.
04-29-16 | 12:04 PM
#30
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Today, right now, I'm having brunch in Davis. I've watched as bikes of every major category, price level, and vintage have gone past... And one ElliptiGo. Germany sounds dull!
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Genesis 49:16-17
"Well, well!" said Holmes, impatiently. "A good cyclist does not need a high road. The moor is intersected with paths and the moon is at the full."
Genesis 49:16-17
"Well, well!" said Holmes, impatiently. "A good cyclist does not need a high road. The moor is intersected with paths and the moon is at the full."
04-29-16 | 12:33 PM
#31
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I would say that is indeed one of the things I noticed, most bikes did have a chain guard and many did have a full case. In fact, I saw few bikes with a bare chain and if I did it was obvious some damage resulted in that condition.
Another thing, many bike were not locked and if locked they were locked with a minimal, cheap cable lock. I gather there are so many bikes and so many are so similar that a thief would be bored with it. I mean why choose one black step through bike with fenders and rack and lights vs another similar black step through bike with fenders and rack and lights? Yes, I did see bikes locked but largely it was not heavy locks and was not consistent. I was waiting on my ride watching cyclist move by and I saw a business man with briefcase come out of an office complex in a suit and tie and a long overcoat throw his briefcase on the rear rack and bungee it and push it off the bike rack, it was not locked, sitting right on the sidewalk.
I have visited many cities in America such as Portland where there is an established cycling culture and there is simply no comparison to the numbers of bikes I saw in Germany. Here and there there is a high density but in the cities I visited bike traffic was dense everywhere.
Look, I am sure there are sporting cyclists such as myself in Germany but I did not see any and as I said, in the three nice bike shops I visited, there just was nothing of that type present. How about this little cutie:
Had I taken a sample of cyclists, I would have found sporting bikes, brakeless fixies, fenderless hybrids powered by Lycra clad engines about as extinct as this fellow:
Last edited by Loose Chain; 04-29-16 at 12:41 PM.
04-29-16 | 12:49 PM
#32
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Seems that 50 years ago most Davis students had good sense about riding a category of bike and wearing clothes appropriate for the task at hand.
04-29-16 | 01:01 PM
#33
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At the Sudbury Cyclists Union AGM the other day, we had a speaker, Ursula, who talked about her many years of cycling. She told us that in Seoul Korea, many of the highways are elevated, the space below is for cyclists and pedestrians. Also, cyclists are almost 100% opposite to what the OP witnessed, all in lycra and presumably, many road bikes.
04-29-16 | 01:07 PM
#34
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I wouldn't expect daily commuters in Europe or Japan to use belt drive - there are lots of cheap reliable bicycles with chains available used and new that can't accept belt drive, so they would have to actively look for an unusual (belt) bicycle that would be harder to have serviced.
04-29-16 | 01:10 PM
#35
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I wouldn't expect daily commuters in Europe or Japan to use belt drive - there are lots of cheap reliable bicycles with chains available used and new that can't accept belt drive, so they would have to actively look for an unusual bicycle that would be harder to have serviced.
04-29-16 | 01:18 PM
#36
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As a couple of people have mentioned, weather and distance have a lot to do with outfit. Just checking: it's 83F here right now, only so low because it's still spring. 45F in Toronto, and 51F is predicted for the high tomorrow in Bonn.
I'd almost like to see the burgomeisters ride 10 miles to work in their nice wool suits around here. Almost, because I'd really rather not walk by them in the office afterwards (sweaty wool smell!) or watch the medics try to cool them down.
I'd almost like to see the burgomeisters ride 10 miles to work in their nice wool suits around here. Almost, because I'd really rather not walk by them in the office afterwards (sweaty wool smell!) or watch the medics try to cool them down.
04-29-16 | 04:59 PM
#37
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OP, great report. This isn't just Germany but just about everywhere outside of the US. Transport for London did a fairly extensive study of cycling across a number of countries and noted that nearly every country was completely lacking in MAMILs except the US and Australia (and noted that these also have the lowest bicycling rates by a significant margin).
For their part the UK are somewhere between the US and Europe in terms of MAMILs and similar elements though they are quickly moving much closer to Europe with more protected bikeways and more people riding normal upright Dutch bikes in normal clothes. The new north-south cycle superhighway is mostly complete. I rode by it a few months ago while they were building it. Looking forward to riding it in a few weeks when.
In terms of ridership Germany is probably about third (in Europe) behind the first place Netherlands and perennial second place Danes. Finland, Sweden, and Spain are catching up rather quickly though.
For their part the UK are somewhere between the US and Europe in terms of MAMILs and similar elements though they are quickly moving much closer to Europe with more protected bikeways and more people riding normal upright Dutch bikes in normal clothes. The new north-south cycle superhighway is mostly complete. I rode by it a few months ago while they were building it. Looking forward to riding it in a few weeks when.
In terms of ridership Germany is probably about third (in Europe) behind the first place Netherlands and perennial second place Danes. Finland, Sweden, and Spain are catching up rather quickly though.
04-29-16 | 05:05 PM
#38
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I didn't say so. I said German cycling sounds dull by comparison. However I invite you to try to define a typical bike commuting locale in the U.S.Eh? and then not be confronted with a thousand counterexamples either better or worse. We were recently talking in another thread about bikes in Camden, Arkansas...
__________________
Genesis 49:16-17
"Well, well!" said Holmes, impatiently. "A good cyclist does not need a high road. The moor is intersected with paths and the moon is at the full."
Genesis 49:16-17
"Well, well!" said Holmes, impatiently. "A good cyclist does not need a high road. The moor is intersected with paths and the moon is at the full."
04-29-16 | 05:34 PM
#39
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How many of your wool suit wearing co-workers ride a bicycle every day 10 miles to work? What percentage of commuters that you know no m atter what they wear at work, especially those who are not members of your bicycling "training" club, do you think would seriously consider riding a bicycle every day 10 miles to work in any sort of apparel?
Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 04-29-16 at 05:40 PM.
04-29-16 | 05:38 PM
#40
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I didn't say so. I said German cycling sounds dull by comparison. However I invite you to try to define a typical bike commuting locale in the U.S.Eh? and then not be confronted with a thousand counterexamples either better or worse. We were recently talking in another thread about bikes in Camden, Arkansas...
04-29-16 | 05:47 PM
#41
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OP, great report. This isn't just Germany but just about everywhere outside of the US. Transport for London did a fairly extensive study of cycling across a number of countries and noted that nearly every country was completely lacking in MAMILs except the US and Australia (and noted that these also have the lowest bicycling rates by a significant margin).
For their part the UK are somewhere between the US and Europe in terms of MAMILs and similar elements though they are quickly moving much closer to Europe with more protected bikeways and more people riding normal upright Dutch bikes in normal clothes. The new north-south cycle superhighway is mostly complete. I rode by it a few months ago while they were building it. Looking forward to riding it in a few weeks when.
In terms of ridership Germany is probably about third (in Europe) behind the first place Netherlands and perennial second place Danes. Finland, Sweden, and Spain are catching up rather quickly though.
For their part the UK are somewhere between the US and Europe in terms of MAMILs and similar elements though they are quickly moving much closer to Europe with more protected bikeways and more people riding normal upright Dutch bikes in normal clothes. The new north-south cycle superhighway is mostly complete. I rode by it a few months ago while they were building it. Looking forward to riding it in a few weeks when.
In terms of ridership Germany is probably about third (in Europe) behind the first place Netherlands and perennial second place Danes. Finland, Sweden, and Spain are catching up rather quickly though.
04-29-16 | 06:35 PM
#42
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Good info, thanks. Just to be clear, I am not anti-MAMIL. I only made note of the fact that I saw none. MAMILs mostly ride for fun, fitness and sport and tend to ride expensive hardware and these folks I observed were riding for transportation and their attire is chosen accordingly. I am sure, as I have said, that there are sporting cyclists in Germany, I just did not see any at all and found the contrast to be interesting to home.
I'm not anti-MAMIL but I am anti MAMIL culture. 'Cyclists' have become quite hated across the US. And often for good reason. People have learned that someone wearing lycra is very likely to be a jerk. Not always, but often. They are likely to run red lights — when others have right-of-way. They 'take the lane' and block traffic when it's not necessary. They filter to the front of drivers at red lights and stop signs so the drivers have to pass them yet again. Most of the time there is fairly decent cooperation between drivers and people riding bicycles in Europe that you don't see in the US.
04-29-16 | 08:45 PM
#43
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Per capita and per square mile there are likely many more racers (road, mtn, and x) in Germany than in the US. As mentioned above they're not as noticeable because of the number of other people riding bicycles.
I'm not anti-MAMIL but I am anti MAMIL culture. 'Cyclists' have become quite hated across the US. And often for good reason. People have learned that someone wearing lycra is very likely to be a jerk. Not always, but often. They are likely to run red lights — when others have right-of-way. They 'take the lane' and block traffic when it's not necessary. They filter to the front of drivers at red lights and stop signs so the drivers have to pass them yet again. Most of the time there is fairly decent cooperation between drivers and people riding bicycles in Europe that you don't see in the US.
I'm not anti-MAMIL but I am anti MAMIL culture. 'Cyclists' have become quite hated across the US. And often for good reason. People have learned that someone wearing lycra is very likely to be a jerk. Not always, but often. They are likely to run red lights — when others have right-of-way. They 'take the lane' and block traffic when it's not necessary. They filter to the front of drivers at red lights and stop signs so the drivers have to pass them yet again. Most of the time there is fairly decent cooperation between drivers and people riding bicycles in Europe that you don't see in the US.
04-29-16 | 11:26 PM
#44
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This knitpicking over what people are wearing when they ride is just ridiculous. I wear what is comfortable on the bike, and cycling specific clothes are comfortable to me on the bike. You want to wear jeans or chinos or whatever, go ahead. There is already enough snobbery within the hobby, this just adds to it.
I will tell you what I have observed as a commuter in the United States. The bike lane is not taken seriously. Everything from busses loading and unloading to delivery trucks parked in it, taxis blocking it, drivers using it as an illegal passing lane, runners and joggers using it as their own personal track, pedestrians choosing to walk in it vs the sidewalk, drivers drifting into it instead of staying in their lane, in the winter the roads are plowed and the bike lane is not, etc etc etc. The United States is the home of the car, and specifically Michigan where I live, is the capital. So much of what Michigan has become is due to the popularity of the automobile, not the bike. The bike could be seen as the "enemy" of the car with more and more people going car free.
So when I read about how the cycling/infrastructure is over in Europe, there really is no comparison to me. The US is a whole different world compared to Denmark and Sweden and even though we are not that different, we are very different when it comes to transportation.
I will tell you what I have observed as a commuter in the United States. The bike lane is not taken seriously. Everything from busses loading and unloading to delivery trucks parked in it, taxis blocking it, drivers using it as an illegal passing lane, runners and joggers using it as their own personal track, pedestrians choosing to walk in it vs the sidewalk, drivers drifting into it instead of staying in their lane, in the winter the roads are plowed and the bike lane is not, etc etc etc. The United States is the home of the car, and specifically Michigan where I live, is the capital. So much of what Michigan has become is due to the popularity of the automobile, not the bike. The bike could be seen as the "enemy" of the car with more and more people going car free.
So when I read about how the cycling/infrastructure is over in Europe, there really is no comparison to me. The US is a whole different world compared to Denmark and Sweden and even though we are not that different, we are very different when it comes to transportation.
04-30-16 | 12:10 AM
#45
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This knitpicking over what people are wearing when they ride is just ridiculous. I wear what is comfortable on the bike, and cycling specific clothes are comfortable to me on the bike. You want to wear jeans or chinos or whatever, go ahead. There is already enough snobbery within the hobby, this just adds to it.
Last edited by Loose Chain; 04-30-16 at 12:32 AM.
04-30-16 | 12:37 AM
#46
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Spent the last two weeks in Germany and thereabout. Visited several cities and made some observations.
Bicycles are everywhere. Bicycle racks everywhere. Lots of dedicated bike paths and bike lanes. Everybody it seems walks or rides a bike to get to work at least in part or to shop or just simply to move from place A to place B to place C. But that is where the similarity to cycling in North America ends.
There were absolutely no sport bikes, that being racing bikes, hybrids or MTB/ATB. Every bicycle had lights powered by either a generator or a battery pack. Every bike had fenders. Every bike had a rack or racks and a basket.
Nobody wore a helmet. Nobody wore cycling specific clothing. Instead they cycled in their working cloths be that a suit and tie or coveralls or business casual or casual. There was no lycra. I saw no MAMILS and in fact saw no sporting cyclist or anybody in team "kit" type clothing. They wore no special shoes and I saw no clip-in shoes or cages on the pedals. All bikes were 30mm tires or larger on 700c wheels.
Bikes, well, they were either heavy aluminum double down tube step through frames or a variety of mixte like designs. Most were ridden hard and while it appeared some were taken care of it was clear that cycling there was strictly transportation and not a sport or a hobby/love. I did see some older English "racer" types, IGH diamond frame bikes, not common but not unusual.
So, since I saw no sport cycling, well, in the bike "shops" what was in there? Well, commuter type bikes already rigged out with lights and racks just as I had seen all over the streets. I saw no sporting bicycles at all in any of the three shops I visited. The entire inventory was commuter/transportation cycling oriented.
Okay, so the people. I saw all ages, all types from kids to old women. I saw very, very few helmets. Hardly any at all. I did see a lot of people smoking while cycling. I saw a lot of people walk/push the bikes up hill and coast down, especially the older women when the bikes were laden with shopping items.
Clothing, again, no cycling clothing. I did see some women wearing leggings and skirts. I did see guys wearing some sort of trouser like legging as well but they were NOT, WERE NOT, cycling cloths and there were people wearing those with or without a bicycle. European men in particular, of all ages, contrary to their North American brethren, wear much tighter fitting clothing. The clothing is tailored if it is a suit and the jeans, when there are jeans, are skinny or very slim cut. Shirts are slim cut and ties are everywhere as are suits which are also cut slim to hug the body. And they are riding bicycles in that attire. No spandex.
Okay, so did I see any messenger bags? Nope. Either the things being carried like a brief case go on the rear rack or basket or the items purchased in basket. I saw few real panniers and I saw no messenger bags. But I did see a lot of men, mostly younger men and women too, using a back pack.
There is no pretense that the cycling I saw was for fitness or fun or recreation. These people use the bicycle as a transportation tool.
And I am serious, every bicycle I saw was fitted with fenders and lights and a sounding device and racks and baskets.
I saw no CF bikes at all.
This is what I saw in four German states in five major German cities and several smaller cities and two Dutch cities.
And, while on the subject, I saw much fewer obese people than in North America. However, I would not say the fitness level was any better, just not as fat. Just because one is skinny does not mean they are physically fit as they cycled by smoking a cigarette. It is not about fitness, it is about getting from here to there.
J
Bicycles are everywhere. Bicycle racks everywhere. Lots of dedicated bike paths and bike lanes. Everybody it seems walks or rides a bike to get to work at least in part or to shop or just simply to move from place A to place B to place C. But that is where the similarity to cycling in North America ends.
There were absolutely no sport bikes, that being racing bikes, hybrids or MTB/ATB. Every bicycle had lights powered by either a generator or a battery pack. Every bike had fenders. Every bike had a rack or racks and a basket.
Nobody wore a helmet. Nobody wore cycling specific clothing. Instead they cycled in their working cloths be that a suit and tie or coveralls or business casual or casual. There was no lycra. I saw no MAMILS and in fact saw no sporting cyclist or anybody in team "kit" type clothing. They wore no special shoes and I saw no clip-in shoes or cages on the pedals. All bikes were 30mm tires or larger on 700c wheels.
Bikes, well, they were either heavy aluminum double down tube step through frames or a variety of mixte like designs. Most were ridden hard and while it appeared some were taken care of it was clear that cycling there was strictly transportation and not a sport or a hobby/love. I did see some older English "racer" types, IGH diamond frame bikes, not common but not unusual.
So, since I saw no sport cycling, well, in the bike "shops" what was in there? Well, commuter type bikes already rigged out with lights and racks just as I had seen all over the streets. I saw no sporting bicycles at all in any of the three shops I visited. The entire inventory was commuter/transportation cycling oriented.
Okay, so the people. I saw all ages, all types from kids to old women. I saw very, very few helmets. Hardly any at all. I did see a lot of people smoking while cycling. I saw a lot of people walk/push the bikes up hill and coast down, especially the older women when the bikes were laden with shopping items.
Clothing, again, no cycling clothing. I did see some women wearing leggings and skirts. I did see guys wearing some sort of trouser like legging as well but they were NOT, WERE NOT, cycling cloths and there were people wearing those with or without a bicycle. European men in particular, of all ages, contrary to their North American brethren, wear much tighter fitting clothing. The clothing is tailored if it is a suit and the jeans, when there are jeans, are skinny or very slim cut. Shirts are slim cut and ties are everywhere as are suits which are also cut slim to hug the body. And they are riding bicycles in that attire. No spandex.
Okay, so did I see any messenger bags? Nope. Either the things being carried like a brief case go on the rear rack or basket or the items purchased in basket. I saw few real panniers and I saw no messenger bags. But I did see a lot of men, mostly younger men and women too, using a back pack.
There is no pretense that the cycling I saw was for fitness or fun or recreation. These people use the bicycle as a transportation tool.
And I am serious, every bicycle I saw was fitted with fenders and lights and a sounding device and racks and baskets.
I saw no CF bikes at all.
This is what I saw in four German states in five major German cities and several smaller cities and two Dutch cities.
And, while on the subject, I saw much fewer obese people than in North America. However, I would not say the fitness level was any better, just not as fat. Just because one is skinny does not mean they are physically fit as they cycled by smoking a cigarette. It is not about fitness, it is about getting from here to there.
J
In my country lots of people smoke, even sportsmen, apart from known health hazards later in life and perhaps a bit smaller lung capacity, it doesn't affect fitness THAT much. We've had pro basketball players, world champions, that would drink a bottle of whiskey and a smoke a pack of cigarettes per night regularly.
Germany has a law on bicycle lights. Only bikes lighter than 11 kg (if I remember correctly) - that is road bikes - can have "non standard" lights. The rest must have the approved, with tested beam direction etc. So most of them opt for dynamo driven bicycle mounted ones. And when bike is used for transport, it makes no sense NOT having mudguards (and rack for that matter) - can't risk ruining your clothes just riding through a puddle without slowing down.
There is one big difference between the USA and Europe - distances! My city is 2nd largest in my country and you can get from one end to the next in about 20 minutes on bicycle! While it's a 50 minute walk. Driving, because of traffic jams is also about 20 minutes + 5 minutes looking for a parking spot. Using a bus, about 25 minutes. So bicycle commuting makes a lot of sense here. Market places (and shopping malls) are also near, inside the city, or just on the entrance.
I understand that in most US cities, you can't commute to work, or even buy at a big (cheap) shopping mall without at least a 10-20 mile commute. So without a car, you're ****ed?
Last edited by Bike Gremlin; 04-30-16 at 12:52 AM.
04-30-16 | 02:56 AM
#47
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It's not just in Europe that cyclists dress normal...It's the same here in my area. Majority of transportational commuter cyclists wear normal clothes and use hybrids or mountain bikes, I also regularly see bikes with fenders and racks...Only weekend warriors wear spandex costumes and ride race bikes....I've been a cyclists for 9 years now, riding all year round from the hottest to the coldest, I've ridded many thousands of miles in the last couple of years and I don't even own any cycling specific costumes and none of my bikes have clipless pedals.
I prefer riding in "costume".
04-30-16 | 04:51 AM
#48
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You are the one quibbling. I reported exactly what I saw and the choice of bicycles and equipment and lack of helmets and cycling specific attire was striking, not to mention the smoking while cycling and walking. It is what it is and that was all it was meant to be, a report of what I saw, and at that a report of one person on one visit. Though I have been to Europe before a number of times but did not pay attention to cycling so much, however, nothing I saw in those visits was any different. It is not about good or bad or right or wrong, it is what I saw.
04-30-16 | 06:35 AM
#49
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Good for you. I have a 40 mile RT commute in a hilly area with hot summers. In July I'm not just damp with sweat when I get to work. I'm soaked and dripping. If I hang up my jersey without wringing it out, it will make a puddle on the floor.
I prefer riding in "costume".
I prefer riding in "costume".
04-30-16 | 07:17 AM
#50
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You didn't know? You are supposed to wear normal clothes and ride a heavy upright dutch style bike. I do a 17 mile RT in an extremely flat area with hot summers. In July I'm not just damp with sweat when I get to work either, I am soaking wet. Very little of my commute is in the shade which makes for one hell of a ride. From the sounds of several people on this forum, if you are not in normal clothes with a heavy upright dutch bike, you are simply doing it wrong. To that I would like to extend an open invitation to anyone who would like to ride my route with me in the middle of the summer on that bike in those clothes.