Daytime Lights
#51
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 7,239
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From: Bay Area, Calif.
That would be correct if you were using a mirror as your reflector, but is not true at all for the 'corner reflector' technique used in actual reflectors. In these, the light is reflected back in the direction from which it came: i.e. if lit from the left side the light is reflected back to the same side, to the left. That makes reflectors far more effective than mirrors would be since the driver's headlight beam is directed right back at him even if it hits your reflector at an angle.
[You get the same effect if throwing a ball hard into the corner of a room (i.e. where two walls meet the ceiling or floor). After bouncing off all three surfaces the ball will rebound back towards you.]
#52
Mad bike riding scientist




Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Denver, CO
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Part of the 'explanation' in that article is that "in order to work, reflector needs to be under direct light, and it directs light right back. That means that if it is lit from the left side, it will reflect the light to the opposite side to the right."
That would be correct if you were using a mirror as your reflector, but is not true at all for the 'corner reflector' technique used in actual reflectors. In these, the light is reflected back in the direction from which it came: i.e. if lit from the left side the light is reflected back to the same side, to the left. That makes reflectors far more effective than mirrors would be since the driver's headlight beam is directed right back at him even if it hits your reflector at an angle.
[You get the same effect if throwing a ball hard into the corner of a room (i.e. where two walls meet the ceiling or floor). After bouncing off all three surfaces the ball will rebound back towards you.]
That would be correct if you were using a mirror as your reflector, but is not true at all for the 'corner reflector' technique used in actual reflectors. In these, the light is reflected back in the direction from which it came: i.e. if lit from the left side the light is reflected back to the same side, to the left. That makes reflectors far more effective than mirrors would be since the driver's headlight beam is directed right back at him even if it hits your reflector at an angle.
[You get the same effect if throwing a ball hard into the corner of a room (i.e. where two walls meet the ceiling or floor). After bouncing off all three surfaces the ball will rebound back towards you.]
And reflectors are mostly useless during daylight hours. They still reflect light but the ambient light overwhelms it.
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Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#53
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 7,239
Likes: 8
From: Bay Area, Calif.
While it is true that the reflector is more efficient than a mirror and light coming from the left won't be reflected to the right, the angle of incidence is still important and narrow. If the light source is too far off axis, it won't reflect back or even hit the reflecting surface. To use your analogy of a ball thrown into the corner, if you miss the corner, the ball doesn't rebound back towards you.
And reflectors are mostly useless during daylight hours. They still reflect light but the ambient light overwhelms it.
And reflectors are mostly useless during daylight hours. They still reflect light but the ambient light overwhelms it.
And sure, if the driver's headlight beam completely misses your reflector then there won't be any light for it to reflect. But reflectors are still much more effective than that article would have us believe. I'd never depend on them alone, but they make a very cheap and lightweight backup to active lighting systems.
#54
Mostly harmless
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,462
Likes: 243
From: Novi Sad
Bikes: Heavy, with friction shifters
Part of the 'explanation' in that article is that "in order to work, reflector needs to be under direct light, and it directs light right back. That means that if it is lit from the left side, it will reflect the light to the opposite side to the right."
That would be correct if you were using a mirror as your reflector, but is not true at all for the 'corner reflector' technique used in actual reflectors. In these, the light is reflected back in the direction from which it came: i.e. if lit from the left side the light is reflected back to the same side, to the left. That makes reflectors far more effective than mirrors would be since the driver's headlight beam is directed right back at him even if it hits your reflector at an angle.
[You get the same effect if throwing a ball hard into the corner of a room (i.e. where two walls meet the ceiling or floor). After bouncing off all three surfaces the ball will rebound back towards you.]
That would be correct if you were using a mirror as your reflector, but is not true at all for the 'corner reflector' technique used in actual reflectors. In these, the light is reflected back in the direction from which it came: i.e. if lit from the left side the light is reflected back to the same side, to the left. That makes reflectors far more effective than mirrors would be since the driver's headlight beam is directed right back at him even if it hits your reflector at an angle.
[You get the same effect if throwing a ball hard into the corner of a room (i.e. where two walls meet the ceiling or floor). After bouncing off all three surfaces the ball will rebound back towards you.]
#55
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,441
Likes: 235
Anyway, to get back on topic, today I looked at a few light sets that an apathetic salesman described as "the ones most people buy for day riding." None of these were in my price range and none of them looked anywhere near as bright as the ones I am seeing on the road lately. The rear blinkies, in particular, didn't impress me at all.
So should I assume that all the really bright light sets I see on the road during the daytime are $75-100? That's crazy to me.
So should I assume that all the really bright light sets I see on the road during the daytime are $75-100? That's crazy to me.
#56
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2012
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From: WKY
Bikes: 2014 Trek Crossrip LTD, 2013 Raleigh Misceo
https://www.modernbike.com/cygolite-...t-sl-usb-combo
I have a Metro 300 on my backup bike and on my wife's bike. They are very bright IMHO.
I have a Metro 300 on my backup bike and on my wife's bike. They are very bright IMHO.
#57
Thread Starter
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https://www.modernbike.com/cygolite-...t-sl-usb-combo
I have a Metro 300 on my backup bike and on my wife's bike. They are very bright IMHO.
I have a Metro 300 on my backup bike and on my wife's bike. They are very bright IMHO.
By the way, I should mention that, before I restored my old NiteRider, I was using a $5.00 32-LED flashlight I got from Harbor Freight. It still works fantastically, but doesn't have a "flash" mode. Had I not gotten the bug to play with the old NiteRider (no flash mode, either), I would still be using the HF light, or I'd be looking for a similar cheapo flashlight with variable settings. However, it seems many people here are indifferent to - or adamantly against - a flashing front beam, so I'm not rushing out to spend a lot of money on one. What's REALLY drawing me in right now, though, are the very noticeable TAIL lights that I see on the road, but not in the stores.
#58
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 13,748
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From: Michigan
Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)
Or you can go with the Chinese no-name way. This is what I do, having tried a bunch of lights, this is pretty much what I use now.
$12: https://www.ebay.com/itm/271959824679
(Obviously it's not 8000 lumens. Maybe 600 or so, but that's perfectly adequate IMO)
The above comes with a pretty junky battery. It might give you close to a couple of hours of runtime, and last a few months. When that dies or you get fed up with it, I recommend:
This battery box - waterproof, empty, $10: 4X 18650 Battery Pack Water Resistant Case Storage Cover for Bike Bicycle Lamp | eBay
Four high quality Panasonic cells to go in it, $27: https://smile.amazon.com/p/B00C26OWGS
Still under $50 even if you just buy everything at once. If you can swing it that's not a bad idea, use the cheap battery the light comes with as a backup in case you lose lights on the way.
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Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
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Last edited by ItsJustMe; 10-09-16 at 10:10 AM.
#59
Chinese knock offs are fine for some, but you will not catch me fudging around with those. I depend on my lights and there are so many variables with the knock offs that it just isn't worth it.
If you want to get a good set of lights to be seen with, find the ones you want, don't think about the price, and just buy them. If you use them and it prevents being hit one single time, they paid for themselves.
If you want to get a good set of lights to be seen with, find the ones you want, don't think about the price, and just buy them. If you use them and it prevents being hit one single time, they paid for themselves.
#60
Yeah, but some of us like fudging around with things, or are cheap...or both.
Besides, I always run two lights--one on steady and one on flash at night; a single flashing one during the day. The odds that both will fail on any one ride? Pretty small.

Besides, I always run two lights--one on steady and one on flash at night; a single flashing one during the day. The odds that both will fail on any one ride? Pretty small.
#62
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 569
Likes: 1
8K lumens, pretty hilarious.
Yeah, I bought a half dozen of the various magic shine knockoffs about a year and a half ago, most all of them with a battery pack. I've had one battery set "fail," meaning it works intermittently, if at all. The other 3 or 4 sets are working just fine, for now anyway.
The problem with the battery packs are that the connecting wires are super thin and fragile, and the soldering is very minimal, just a tiny touch of solder. You have to be a bit careful handling the battery packs.
The lights themselves work well. I get over 2.5 hours running at full blast, which is pretty good as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah, I bought a half dozen of the various magic shine knockoffs about a year and a half ago, most all of them with a battery pack. I've had one battery set "fail," meaning it works intermittently, if at all. The other 3 or 4 sets are working just fine, for now anyway.
The problem with the battery packs are that the connecting wires are super thin and fragile, and the soldering is very minimal, just a tiny touch of solder. You have to be a bit careful handling the battery packs.
The lights themselves work well. I get over 2.5 hours running at full blast, which is pretty good as far as I'm concerned.
#63
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 13,748
Likes: 10
From: Michigan
Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)
I'm not sure what the tradeoff is, because I think I have at least 4 cheap Chinese knockoff lights now, the longest for probably at least 6 years now, and I've never had any trouble with any of them, apart from fraying cords which take a couple of years to be a problem and I doubt any light would be immune to this. A fraying cord is a minor inconvenience IMO.
My first light was an MR16 halogen in a hunk of plumbing parts with a 12V SLA brick zip tied to the rear rack. Truly horrid DIY. I went through offroad HID and several other generations. What you can get now for $30 is brighter than and probably as reliable as anything you could buy 8 or 10 years ago.
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Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
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#64
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Joined: Sep 2005
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From: Michigan
Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)
It's all very well to have nice shaped beams and I wish we had more options available in the US for that. However, on my route I do NEED to be a certain amount obnoxious. On hilly/windy 2 lane roads with no shoulder and cars doing 60+ MPH, I want a light that will get attention instantly. I also want a boatload of lumens when I'm coming down the backside of a hill at 30+ MPH in pitch black.
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Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
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#65
Banned
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 43,586
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From: NW,Oregon Coast
Bikes: 8
I'm told where the twin headlight scheme for the halogen E6, was in series , secondary bypass thru or on , Primary on or all Off.
LED lights would be wired in parallel .. either each or both, on or off.
Night rider 12v twin headlight units were dazzling bright, at the expense of shorter amp/ hours of battery capacity,
'/,
LED lights would be wired in parallel .. either each or both, on or off.
Night rider 12v twin headlight units were dazzling bright, at the expense of shorter amp/ hours of battery capacity,
'/,
#66
Mad bike riding scientist




Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 29,137
Likes: 6,188
From: Denver, CO
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Chinese knock offs are fine for some, but you will not catch me fudging around with those. I depend on my lights and there are so many variables with the knock offs that it just isn't worth it.
If you want to get a good set of lights to be seen with, find the ones you want, don't think about the price, and just buy them. If you use them and it prevents being hit one single time, they paid for themselves.
If you want to get a good set of lights to be seen with, find the ones you want, don't think about the price, and just buy them. If you use them and it prevents being hit one single time, they paid for themselves.
__________________
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#67
Mad bike riding scientist




Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 29,137
Likes: 6,188
From: Denver, CO
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
My first light was an MR16 halogen in a hunk of plumbing parts with a 12V SLA brick zip tied to the rear rack. Truly horrid DIY. I went through offroad HID and several other generations. What you can get now for $30 is brighter than and probably as reliable as anything you could buy 8 or 10 years ago.
__________________
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#68
Seņior Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 13,748
Likes: 10
From: Michigan
Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)
I agree with what you said except for this. Your problem was using a 12V battery. Overvolting the MR16 by 20% to 14.4V doubles the output to around 1200 lumens. I can't do it for $20 or $30 nor for the weight of the Chinese lamps but the output is simply amazing! No LED even comes close.
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Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
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#69
Disco Infiltrator




Joined: May 2013
Posts: 15,324
Likes: 3,517
From: Folsom CA
Bikes: Stormchaser, Paramount, Tilt, Samba tandem
How do you tell Chinese knockoff from authentic Chinese?
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Genesis 49:16-17
"Well, well!" said Holmes, impatiently. "A good cyclist does not need a high road. The moor is intersected with paths and the moon is at the full."
Genesis 49:16-17
"Well, well!" said Holmes, impatiently. "A good cyclist does not need a high road. The moor is intersected with paths and the moon is at the full."
#71
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 13,748
Likes: 10
From: Michigan
Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)
If it has a name brand and you can find a website for that name brand with the product listed, it's probably not from "Joe's We find whatever you want to buy in a Shenzheng back alley and slap it in a box" company. And therefore you might have a chance at some kind of support. For Chinese knockoffs, your support in case of problems boils down to "you can buy 5 of these for the cost of one equivalent non-knockoff, so waddaya want?" Given the almost zero problems had by most people with the cheaper lights, and the fact that IMO nobody should ever ride with just one light anyway (MAYBE only one daytime light) that's a reasonable tradeoff.
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Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
#72
Unlisted member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,192
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From: Chicagoland
Bikes: Specialized Hardrock
XinTD C8 V5 XM-L2 U3 3D 18650 Flashlight
This looks like the current version of the light I got 2 - 3 years ago. $29.99 and bright enough to be my main light it will work fine in the daytime without exceeding your $50 budget. Adding a good charger and some good (Panasonic) cells will exceed $50 if you don't have these already.
This looks like the current version of the light I got 2 - 3 years ago. $29.99 and bright enough to be my main light it will work fine in the daytime without exceeding your $50 budget. Adding a good charger and some good (Panasonic) cells will exceed $50 if you don't have these already.
#73
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 569
Likes: 1
If it has a name brand and you can find a website for that name brand with the product listed, it's probably not from "Joe's We find whatever you want to buy in a Shenzheng back alley and slap it in a box" company. And therefore you might have a chance at some kind of support. For Chinese knockoffs, your support in case of problems boils down to "you can buy 5 of these for the cost of one equivalent non-knockoff, so waddaya want?" Given the almost zero problems had by most people with the cheaper lights, and the fact that IMO nobody should ever ride with just one light anyway (MAYBE only one daytime light) that's a reasonable tradeoff.
#74
Seņior Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 13,748
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From: Michigan
Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)
The batteries on these, I consider them the equivalent of the ink cartridges that come with printers. They prove the light works, but they're pretty low capacity and will only last a short time.
The lights themselves are fine, though in most cases you need to be careful with the wires to keep them from fraying. The battery, well, once you figure out that the light is going to work for you, start battery shopping. I posted a link to my current choice before, $10 for a waterproof battery box, and $27 for a set of four high quality Panasonic cells off Amazon.
When four good cells, bare, with no enclosure, cost $27, you gotta assume you're getting crap when you buy a light, charger and battery for $15.
I think most people also realize that the lumen rating is utter bullstuff. But because they say it's an 8000 lumen light for $15 doesn't mean that actually getting an 800 lumen light for $15 is a bad deal. You just need to know what you're getting. Which is just as well, because I don't actually want an 8000 lumen light.
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Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
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#75
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,782
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From: Atlanta, GA. USA
Bikes: Surly Long Haul Disc Trucker
Personally, I find just the opposite. A blinking light is difficult to determine where it is or how fast it is moving while a steady light gives that information quite readily. The blinking light will get attention but determining the distance to a blinking light just isn't something that we humans are too good at.



