Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Commuting
Reload this Page >

Daytime Lights

Search
Notices
Commuting Bicycle commuting is easier than you think, before you know it, you'll be hooked. Learn the tips, hints, equipment, safety requirements for safely riding your bike to work.

Daytime Lights

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 10-08-16 | 09:58 AM
  #51  
Senior Member
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 7,239
Likes: 8
From: Bay Area, Calif.
Originally Posted by Papa Tom
Cool stuff in that article. Especially the explanation of how the angles of a bike and a vehicle on a hill can render a rear reflector useless.
Part of the 'explanation' in that article is that "in order to work, reflector needs to be under direct light, and it directs light right back. That means that if it is lit from the left side, it will reflect the light to the opposite side – to the right."
That would be correct if you were using a mirror as your reflector, but is not true at all for the 'corner reflector' technique used in actual reflectors. In these, the light is reflected back in the direction from which it came: i.e. if lit from the left side the light is reflected back to the same side, to the left. That makes reflectors far more effective than mirrors would be since the driver's headlight beam is directed right back at him even if it hits your reflector at an angle.

[You get the same effect if throwing a ball hard into the corner of a room (i.e. where two walls meet the ceiling or floor). After bouncing off all three surfaces the ball will rebound back towards you.]
prathmann is offline  
Reply
Old 10-08-16 | 10:42 AM
  #52  
cyccommute's Avatar
Mad bike riding scientist
Titanium Club Membership
20 Anniversary
Community Builder
Community Influencer
 
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 29,137
Likes: 6,188
From: Denver, CO

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones

Originally Posted by prathmann
Part of the 'explanation' in that article is that "in order to work, reflector needs to be under direct light, and it directs light right back. That means that if it is lit from the left side, it will reflect the light to the opposite side – to the right."
That would be correct if you were using a mirror as your reflector, but is not true at all for the 'corner reflector' technique used in actual reflectors. In these, the light is reflected back in the direction from which it came: i.e. if lit from the left side the light is reflected back to the same side, to the left. That makes reflectors far more effective than mirrors would be since the driver's headlight beam is directed right back at him even if it hits your reflector at an angle.

[You get the same effect if throwing a ball hard into the corner of a room (i.e. where two walls meet the ceiling or floor). After bouncing off all three surfaces the ball will rebound back towards you.]
While it is true that the reflector is more efficient than a mirror and light coming from the left won't be reflected to the right, the angle of incidence is still important and narrow. If the light source is too far off axis, it won't reflect back or even hit the reflecting surface. To use your analogy of a ball thrown into the corner, if you miss the corner, the ball doesn't rebound back towards you.

And reflectors are mostly useless during daylight hours. They still reflect light but the ambient light overwhelms it.
__________________
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!





cyccommute is offline  
Reply
Old 10-08-16 | 11:10 AM
  #53  
Senior Member
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 7,239
Likes: 8
From: Bay Area, Calif.
Originally Posted by cyccommute
While it is true that the reflector is more efficient than a mirror and light coming from the left won't be reflected to the right, the angle of incidence is still important and narrow. If the light source is too far off axis, it won't reflect back or even hit the reflecting surface. To use your analogy of a ball thrown into the corner, if you miss the corner, the ball doesn't rebound back towards you.

And reflectors are mostly useless during daylight hours. They still reflect light but the ambient light overwhelms it.
Don't think anyone has claimed that reflectors are at all effective during daytime. Main problem is again that they reflect light back to the source. If that source is the sun then the reflected light goes back in that direction. That's going to be up in the sky somewhere - not where a motorist is going to see it.

And sure, if the driver's headlight beam completely misses your reflector then there won't be any light for it to reflect. But reflectors are still much more effective than that article would have us believe. I'd never depend on them alone, but they make a very cheap and lightweight backup to active lighting systems.
prathmann is offline  
Reply
Old 10-08-16 | 11:21 AM
  #54  
Bike Gremlin's Avatar
Mostly harmless ™
 
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,462
Likes: 243
From: Novi Sad

Bikes: Heavy, with friction shifters

Originally Posted by prathmann
Part of the 'explanation' in that article is that "in order to work, reflector needs to be under direct light, and it directs light right back. That means that if it is lit from the left side, it will reflect the light to the opposite side – to the right."
That would be correct if you were using a mirror as your reflector, but is not true at all for the 'corner reflector' technique used in actual reflectors. In these, the light is reflected back in the direction from which it came: i.e. if lit from the left side the light is reflected back to the same side, to the left. That makes reflectors far more effective than mirrors would be since the driver's headlight beam is directed right back at him even if it hits your reflector at an angle.

[You get the same effect if throwing a ball hard into the corner of a room (i.e. where two walls meet the ceiling or floor). After bouncing off all three surfaces the ball will rebound back towards you.]
This is true, but the emphasis was on the fact that reflectors are a lot less effective if lit under an angle, or if lights don't hit them at all. Practically, not very reliable unless directly in front of headlights. As explained.
Bike Gremlin is offline  
Reply
Old 10-08-16 | 07:08 PM
  #55  
Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,441
Likes: 235
Anyway, to get back on topic, today I looked at a few light sets that an apathetic salesman described as "the ones most people buy for day riding." None of these were in my price range and none of them looked anywhere near as bright as the ones I am seeing on the road lately. The rear blinkies, in particular, didn't impress me at all.

So should I assume that all the really bright light sets I see on the road during the daytime are $75-100? That's crazy to me.
Papa Tom is offline  
Reply
Old 10-09-16 | 06:19 AM
  #56  
Senior Member
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
From: WKY

Bikes: 2014 Trek Crossrip LTD, 2013 Raleigh Misceo

https://www.modernbike.com/cygolite-...t-sl-usb-combo
I have a Metro 300 on my backup bike and on my wife's bike. They are very bright IMHO.
downwinded is offline  
Reply
Old 10-09-16 | 07:02 AM
  #57  
Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,441
Likes: 235
Originally Posted by downwinded
https://www.modernbike.com/cygolite-...t-sl-usb-combo
I have a Metro 300 on my backup bike and on my wife's bike. They are very bright IMHO.
That's more like it.

By the way, I should mention that, before I restored my old NiteRider, I was using a $5.00 32-LED flashlight I got from Harbor Freight. It still works fantastically, but doesn't have a "flash" mode. Had I not gotten the bug to play with the old NiteRider (no flash mode, either), I would still be using the HF light, or I'd be looking for a similar cheapo flashlight with variable settings. However, it seems many people here are indifferent to - or adamantly against - a flashing front beam, so I'm not rushing out to spend a lot of money on one. What's REALLY drawing me in right now, though, are the very noticeable TAIL lights that I see on the road, but not in the stores.
Papa Tom is offline  
Reply
Old 10-09-16 | 10:07 AM
  #58  
ItsJustMe's Avatar
Seņior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 13,748
Likes: 10
From: Michigan

Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)

Originally Posted by Papa Tom
So should I assume that all the really bright light sets I see on the road during the daytime are $75-100? That's crazy to me.
Well, I really like the Cygolite Metro 550. It's a bit under $50. I think it's a very good all around light. The battery life is only about 1:15 on high but in the daytime you wouldn't be running that mode anyway.

Or you can go with the Chinese no-name way. This is what I do, having tried a bunch of lights, this is pretty much what I use now.

$12: https://www.ebay.com/itm/271959824679

(Obviously it's not 8000 lumens. Maybe 600 or so, but that's perfectly adequate IMO)

The above comes with a pretty junky battery. It might give you close to a couple of hours of runtime, and last a few months. When that dies or you get fed up with it, I recommend:

This battery box - waterproof, empty, $10: 4X 18650 Battery Pack Water Resistant Case Storage Cover for Bike Bicycle Lamp | eBay
Four high quality Panasonic cells to go in it, $27: https://smile.amazon.com/p/B00C26OWGS

Still under $50 even if you just buy everything at once. If you can swing it that's not a bad idea, use the cheap battery the light comes with as a backup in case you lose lights on the way.
__________________
Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.

Last edited by ItsJustMe; 10-09-16 at 10:10 AM.
ItsJustMe is offline  
Reply
Old 10-09-16 | 11:14 AM
  #59  
TenSpeedV2's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 4,347
Likes: 22

Bikes: Felt TK2, Felt Z5

Chinese knock offs are fine for some, but you will not catch me fudging around with those. I depend on my lights and there are so many variables with the knock offs that it just isn't worth it.

If you want to get a good set of lights to be seen with, find the ones you want, don't think about the price, and just buy them. If you use them and it prevents being hit one single time, they paid for themselves.
TenSpeedV2 is offline  
Reply
Old 10-09-16 | 11:54 AM
  #60  
mcours2006's Avatar
Senior Member
10 Anniversary
 
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,228
Likes: 440
From: Toronto, CANADA

Bikes: ...a few.

Yeah, but some of us like fudging around with things, or are cheap...or both.

Besides, I always run two lights--one on steady and one on flash at night; a single flashing one during the day. The odds that both will fail on any one ride? Pretty small.
mcours2006 is offline  
Reply
Old 10-09-16 | 12:20 PM
  #61  
Banned
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 43,586
Likes: 1,380
From: NW,Oregon Coast

Bikes: 8

SON Hub Dynamo, wired LED lights .. I have to actively think about turning them Off.. when I ride it does not matter one way or another ..

Resistance is Negligible ..
fietsbob is offline  
Reply
Old 10-09-16 | 12:40 PM
  #62  
Senior Member
 
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 569
Likes: 1
8K lumens, pretty hilarious.

Yeah, I bought a half dozen of the various magic shine knockoffs about a year and a half ago, most all of them with a battery pack. I've had one battery set "fail," meaning it works intermittently, if at all. The other 3 or 4 sets are working just fine, for now anyway.

The problem with the battery packs are that the connecting wires are super thin and fragile, and the soldering is very minimal, just a tiny touch of solder. You have to be a bit careful handling the battery packs.

The lights themselves work well. I get over 2.5 hours running at full blast, which is pretty good as far as I'm concerned.
American Euchre is offline  
Reply
Old 10-09-16 | 02:15 PM
  #63  
ItsJustMe's Avatar
Seņior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 13,748
Likes: 10
From: Michigan

Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)

Originally Posted by TenSpeedV2
Chinese knock offs are fine for some, but you will not catch me fudging around with those. I depend on my lights and there are so many variables with the knock offs that it just isn't worth it.
I depend on my lights too. So much so that I would never ride with just one, front or back, even if I spent $1000 on them.

I'm not sure what the tradeoff is, because I think I have at least 4 cheap Chinese knockoff lights now, the longest for probably at least 6 years now, and I've never had any trouble with any of them, apart from fraying cords which take a couple of years to be a problem and I doubt any light would be immune to this. A fraying cord is a minor inconvenience IMO.

My first light was an MR16 halogen in a hunk of plumbing parts with a 12V SLA brick zip tied to the rear rack. Truly horrid DIY. I went through offroad HID and several other generations. What you can get now for $30 is brighter than and probably as reliable as anything you could buy 8 or 10 years ago.
__________________
Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
ItsJustMe is offline  
Reply
Old 10-09-16 | 02:18 PM
  #64  
ItsJustMe's Avatar
Seņior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 13,748
Likes: 10
From: Michigan

Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)

Originally Posted by fietsbob
SON Hub Dynamo, wired LED lights .. I have to actively think about turning them Off.. when I ride it does not matter one way or another ..

Resistance is Negligible ..
I have bought a couple of the battery version of the lights that dyno owners say are awesome lights. Supposedly exactly the same thing as far as light output goes. Let's just say I sent them both back within 24 hours. I would NOT care to ride my route with that level of light output.

It's all very well to have nice shaped beams and I wish we had more options available in the US for that. However, on my route I do NEED to be a certain amount obnoxious. On hilly/windy 2 lane roads with no shoulder and cars doing 60+ MPH, I want a light that will get attention instantly. I also want a boatload of lumens when I'm coming down the backside of a hill at 30+ MPH in pitch black.
__________________
Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
ItsJustMe is offline  
Reply
Old 10-09-16 | 03:30 PM
  #65  
Banned
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 43,586
Likes: 1,380
From: NW,Oregon Coast

Bikes: 8

I'm told where the twin headlight scheme for the halogen E6, was in series , secondary bypass thru or on , Primary on or all Off.

LED lights would be wired in parallel .. either each or both, on or off.

Night rider 12v twin headlight units were dazzling bright, at the expense of shorter amp/ hours of battery capacity,





'/,
fietsbob is offline  
Reply
Old 10-10-16 | 08:38 AM
  #66  
cyccommute's Avatar
Mad bike riding scientist
Titanium Club Membership
20 Anniversary
Community Builder
Community Influencer
 
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 29,137
Likes: 6,188
From: Denver, CO

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones

Originally Posted by TenSpeedV2
Chinese knock offs are fine for some, but you will not catch me fudging around with those. I depend on my lights and there are so many variables with the knock offs that it just isn't worth it.

If you want to get a good set of lights to be seen with, find the ones you want, don't think about the price, and just buy them. If you use them and it prevents being hit one single time, they paid for themselves.
I've been using similar lights to those linked to above for 5 to 6 years without issues. They aren't unreliable and their output is about the same as you'll find on lights costing 3 to 5 times more. I have a Cygolite Epilion 850 which I got with REI dividends. It still cost me about $140...7 times the $20 Chinese knockoffs...and it isn't as bright as the $20 lights. I certainly glad I didn't pay any "real" money for it.
__________________
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!





cyccommute is offline  
Reply
Old 10-10-16 | 08:42 AM
  #67  
cyccommute's Avatar
Mad bike riding scientist
Titanium Club Membership
20 Anniversary
Community Builder
Community Influencer
 
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 29,137
Likes: 6,188
From: Denver, CO

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones

Originally Posted by ItsJustMe
My first light was an MR16 halogen in a hunk of plumbing parts with a 12V SLA brick zip tied to the rear rack. Truly horrid DIY. I went through offroad HID and several other generations. What you can get now for $30 is brighter than and probably as reliable as anything you could buy 8 or 10 years ago.
I agree with what you said except for this. Your problem was using a 12V battery. Overvolting the MR16 by 20% to 14.4V doubles the output to around 1200 lumens. I can't do it for $20 or $30 nor for the weight of the Chinese lamps but the output is simply amazing! No LED even comes close.
__________________
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!





cyccommute is offline  
Reply
Old 10-10-16 | 09:49 AM
  #68  
ItsJustMe's Avatar
Seņior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 13,748
Likes: 10
From: Michigan

Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)

Originally Posted by cyccommute
I agree with what you said except for this. Your problem was using a 12V battery. Overvolting the MR16 by 20% to 14.4V doubles the output to around 1200 lumens. I can't do it for $20 or $30 nor for the weight of the Chinese lamps but the output is simply amazing! No LED even comes close.
I did switch to a 14.4V bottle battery on the MR16, it really still was not as bright as the LEDs I run now. It may have put out more light but it was flooding it all over the ditches and the trees. The HID I switched to had a lot of light but took 30 seconds to switch on and was very heavy (machined brass case).
__________________
Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
ItsJustMe is offline  
Reply
Old 10-10-16 | 10:00 AM
  #69  
Darth Lefty's Avatar
Disco Infiltrator
Titanium Club Membership
10 Anniversary
Community Builder
Active Streak: 30 Days
 
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 15,324
Likes: 3,517
From: Folsom CA

Bikes: Stormchaser, Paramount, Tilt, Samba tandem

How do you tell Chinese knockoff from authentic Chinese?
__________________
Genesis 49:16-17
"Well, well!" said Holmes, impatiently. "A good cyclist does not need a high road. The moor is intersected with paths and the moon is at the full."
Darth Lefty is offline  
Reply
Old 10-10-16 | 10:17 AM
  #70  
Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,441
Likes: 235
I believe Authentic Chinese uses a bit more MSG.
Papa Tom is offline  
Reply
Old 10-10-16 | 10:29 AM
  #71  
ItsJustMe's Avatar
Seņior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 13,748
Likes: 10
From: Michigan

Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)

Originally Posted by Darth Lefty
How do you tell Chinese knockoff from authentic Chinese?
If it has a name brand and you can find a website for that name brand with the product listed, it's probably not from "Joe's We find whatever you want to buy in a Shenzheng back alley and slap it in a box" company. And therefore you might have a chance at some kind of support. For Chinese knockoffs, your support in case of problems boils down to "you can buy 5 of these for the cost of one equivalent non-knockoff, so waddaya want?" Given the almost zero problems had by most people with the cheaper lights, and the fact that IMO nobody should ever ride with just one light anyway (MAYBE only one daytime light) that's a reasonable tradeoff.
__________________
Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
ItsJustMe is offline  
Reply
Old 10-10-16 | 11:23 AM
  #72  
no motor?'s Avatar
Unlisted member
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,192
Likes: 435
From: Chicagoland

Bikes: Specialized Hardrock

XinTD C8 V5 XM-L2 U3 3D 18650 Flashlight
This looks like the current version of the light I got 2 - 3 years ago. $29.99 and bright enough to be my main light it will work fine in the daytime without exceeding your $50 budget. Adding a good charger and some good (Panasonic) cells will exceed $50 if you don't have these already.
no motor? is offline  
Reply
Old 10-10-16 | 12:06 PM
  #73  
Senior Member
 
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 569
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by ItsJustMe
If it has a name brand and you can find a website for that name brand with the product listed, it's probably not from "Joe's We find whatever you want to buy in a Shenzheng back alley and slap it in a box" company. And therefore you might have a chance at some kind of support. For Chinese knockoffs, your support in case of problems boils down to "you can buy 5 of these for the cost of one equivalent non-knockoff, so waddaya want?" Given the almost zero problems had by most people with the cheaper lights, and the fact that IMO nobody should ever ride with just one light anyway (MAYBE only one daytime light) that's a reasonable tradeoff.
I've had multiple defective lights from china. A tail light broke after less than a dozen uses. Granted, I paid less than $2 for it. A head light battery is barely working. Out $10.
American Euchre is offline  
Reply
Old 10-10-16 | 02:11 PM
  #74  
ItsJustMe's Avatar
Seņior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 13,748
Likes: 10
From: Michigan

Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)

Originally Posted by American Euchre
I've had multiple defective lights from china. A tail light broke after less than a dozen uses. Granted, I paid less than $2 for it. A head light battery is barely working. Out $10.
Well sure, the utter crap is just that. I wouldn't even buy a < $10 light.

The batteries on these, I consider them the equivalent of the ink cartridges that come with printers. They prove the light works, but they're pretty low capacity and will only last a short time.

The lights themselves are fine, though in most cases you need to be careful with the wires to keep them from fraying. The battery, well, once you figure out that the light is going to work for you, start battery shopping. I posted a link to my current choice before, $10 for a waterproof battery box, and $27 for a set of four high quality Panasonic cells off Amazon.

When four good cells, bare, with no enclosure, cost $27, you gotta assume you're getting crap when you buy a light, charger and battery for $15.

I think most people also realize that the lumen rating is utter bullstuff. But because they say it's an 8000 lumen light for $15 doesn't mean that actually getting an 800 lumen light for $15 is a bad deal. You just need to know what you're getting. Which is just as well, because I don't actually want an 8000 lumen light.
__________________
Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
ItsJustMe is offline  
Reply
Old 10-10-16 | 02:50 PM
  #75  
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,782
Likes: 1
From: Atlanta, GA. USA

Bikes: Surly Long Haul Disc Trucker

Originally Posted by cyccommute
Personally, I find just the opposite. A blinking light is difficult to determine where it is or how fast it is moving while a steady light gives that information quite readily. The blinking light will get attention but determining the distance to a blinking light just isn't something that we humans are too good at.
+1. Have you ever passed a blinky-light cyclist on a dark road in your car? I do it less sure of myself and whether I'm leaving the room I should. But with city lights this is way better.
Walter S is offline  
Reply


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.