Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Commuting
Reload this Page >

Batteries in the cold

Commuting Bicycle commuting is easier than you think, before you know it, you'll be hooked. Learn the tips, hints, equipment, safety requirements for safely riding your bike to work.

Batteries in the cold

Reply

Old 12-15-17, 07:13 AM
  #26  
rumrunn6
Senior Member
 
rumrunn6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 21,543

Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2597 Post(s)
Originally Posted by dedhed View Post
"too cold to charge" message
was reading safety warnings for a car battery charger I got yesterday. one of the warnings was never charge a frozen battery. they didn't say why but there's probably a good reason. was gonna take it out of my kids car, bring it inside to charge it overnite. but the warnings about gas clouds & explosions, etc had me doubting the idea. eventually my mechanic said he'd go check it out & it was probably the starter anyway
rumrunn6 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-17, 12:08 PM
  #27  
no motor?
Senior Member
 
no motor?'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 5,836

Bikes: Specialized Hardrock

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 753 Post(s)
Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Tell that to my Iphone. Had a soccer game last night. Left the office at 100% charge, and after riding to the field still had something in the 90's (It was in my pocket, under a couple of layers). During the game it was basically sitting out, and I think it was probably around 30F (-1 or -1C), for the hour long game. When I went to check it afterward, it showed a whopping 1%.

Got home and plugged it in, and it began charging from 93%, sooo... maybe it's just reading 1%, because of the cold, but it could maintain that 1% for a long, long time?
My GF has an iphone that does that too. She wanted to use it to play Christmas music last year when we were ringing the bell for the Salvation Army, but it quit due to the cold. So this year I brought a bluetooth speaker to allow her to keep it in her coat so it would stay warm enough to work, and the short walk from the car to the front of the store along with us getting set up chilled her phone enough to keep it from working. Fortunately she warmed it up by going inside and once it worked it stayed on for our 2 hour shift.
no motor? is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-17, 12:20 PM
  #28  
RidingMatthew 
Let's Ride!
 
RidingMatthew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Triad, NC USA
Posts: 2,121

Bikes: --2010 Jamis 650b1-- 2016 Cervelo R2-- 2018 Salsa Journeyman 650B

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 179 Post(s)
Originally Posted by mcours2006 View Post
I know this is an electronic/lighting question and there's a forum for that there's more traffic here so I'll ask it here.

The last couple of mornings it's been like -14, -17*C. The battery life on my rechargeable lights--all of them, as well as my camera, have been shortened considerably. The funny thing is once I got into work and they've had time to warm up they continued to work, and even the low-charge warning signals stopped flashing. The camera--same thing.

So what gives? Is this normal and is just accepted? What can be done to mitigate, if anything?
I tend to bring my lights in during the winter. I think it helps the battery last longer. I also know that I am running it on solid a lot more to see by instead of flash so it doesn't last as long. I read that my cygolites like a bit of juice before going out in the cold it helps the battery be warm even if outside is not.
I don't do that often
__________________
"Work to eat. Eat to live. Live to bike. Bike to work." --Anonymous ||| "late & alive > early & dead." ~Steely Dan
RidingMatthew is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-17, 12:30 PM
  #29  
srestrepo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Western, MA
Posts: 322

Bikes: 2016 Felt Z85 105, 2016 GT Grade Sora

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
on account of reading this forum last night and after commuting and confirming it this morning, i brought my headlight inside from being attached to my bike.

it was a fully charged Taz 1200 that was outdoors overnight and not in use.

this morning after reading this, i knew there was potential for diminished performance but after trying to turn the light on, i immediately got the red blinking light indicating a very low remaining charge.

now that the light is inside, i turned it (without having charged it at all) back to a green, full charge light when on high.

i dont know much about charging the batteries while they're cold and whatnot but i guess i'll be bringing this light inside for my winter commute...
srestrepo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-17, 12:33 PM
  #30  
ThermionicScott 
Hammer and tongs
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 17,398

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1613 Post(s)
Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
was reading safety warnings for a car battery charger I got yesterday. one of the warnings was never charge a frozen battery. they didn't say why but there's probably a good reason. was gonna take it out of my kids car, bring it inside to charge it overnite. but the warnings about gas clouds & explosions, etc had me doubting the idea. eventually my mechanic said he'd go check it out & it was probably the starter anyway
Car batteries throw off hydrogen gas while charging, but if you're doing it in a well-ventilated area and not making sparks (like moving the cable clamps unnecessarily) you shouldn't have much to worry about. If your battery has gotten low enough to freeze (I had one that was literally bulging years ago), there's a chance your alternator isn't up to snuff anymore, either.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-17, 02:19 PM
  #31  
Abe_Froman
Senior Member
 
Abe_Froman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,326

Bikes: Marin Four Corners, 1960's Schwinn Racer in middle of restoration, mid 70s Motobecane Grand Touring, various other heaps.

Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8095 Post(s)
Originally Posted by pdlamb View Post
You may not need to charge it, just bringing it into the office will warm it up so it'll have more power available when you start home.


In the normal course of things, I replaced several of my extra blinkies this year. It's getting harder to find decent lights that at least pretend to be weather resistant, so I've got at least one rechargeable blinkie on each commuting bike. I've already found it more of a hassle to take each one off the bike, bring it in, and recharge it weekly, as opposed to tossing a couple new alkalines in every 4-6 weeks. Not looking forward to finding out what really cold weather is going to do to the rechargeables.


Of course, my primary dyno lights just keep going, and going, and going...
I've got battery powered Christmas lights on my studded tire bad weather MTB. Put 3 AA non-rechargeable batteries in at the beginning of LAST winter, and they're still going strong.
Abe_Froman is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-17, 03:53 PM
  #32  
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: West Village, New York City
Posts: 36,067

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1973 Raleigh Twenty, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 378 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4792 Post(s)
I believe all batteries perform worse in the cold but NiMH suffer more than LiIon batteries do.
__________________
Tom Reingold, [email protected]
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments. Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-17, 09:19 PM
  #33  
Archwhorides 
Senior Member
 
Archwhorides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Boston
Posts: 672

Bikes: Death machines all

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
I really like the Light and Motion Vis 360 helmet-mounted light. I bring my helmet in to dry out the liner, and the lights/battery warm up without any further thought or extra motions. Plug it in to charge every 3 days or so. My winter ride is about an hour each way and the temps get down to 0F on occasion - with this system and in these conditions, I've never had an issue with battery life.
__________________
Work is the curse of the drinking classes - Oscar Wilde
Archwhorides is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-17, 12:15 PM
  #34  
no motor?
Senior Member
 
no motor?'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 5,836

Bikes: Specialized Hardrock

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 753 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Archwhorides View Post
I really like the Light and Motion Vis 360 helmet-mounted light. I bring my helmet in to dry out the liner, and the lights/battery warm up without any further thought or extra motions. Plug it in to charge every 3 days or so. My winter ride is about an hour each way and the temps get down to 0F on occasion - with this system and in these conditions, I've never had an issue with battery life.
I've had mine for about 6 years now and really like it too. The battery life has been decreasing with time, but it's still good enough to get me through my longer rides and it doesn't bother me to charge it more often now.
no motor? is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-17, 12:37 PM
  #35  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 20,828

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, an orange one and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 81 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2117 Post(s)
Originally Posted by mcours2006 View Post
I store my bike in the mudroom. The temperature in there over night is probably around -10 if the temperature outside is -17 like it was this morning, so I was behind the eight ball already even before leaving the house.
Right there may be your biggest problem. I charge and store my batteries inside the house. That way they are warm before I begin and the heat generated by the discharge keeps them warm enough so that I don't have run problems. You are dipping a bit into the cold end of the pool for optimal battery range but starting cold makes the problem worse.

I also always charge my batteries after use. That way the battery is always a full charge and I don't have to guess if I have enough light to get home. Li-ion doesn't need to be cycled like NiMH or NiCd needed to be so topping up the charge isn't as much of a problem.

Finally, alkaline batteries seem to be unaffected by the cold. I use alkaline for my taillights which are stored out in the cold. Never had a problem with them. Granted they are disposable but a set of batteries will a year or more per light so I don't feel like I'm destroying the planet by using them.
__________________
Stuart Black
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
An Good Ol' Fashion Appalachian Butt Whoopin'.
cyccommute is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-17, 12:42 PM
  #36  
Gresp15C
Senior Member
 
Gresp15C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,401
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 528 Post(s)
Electrochemical cell potentials are temperature dependent, as is the forward voltage drop of an LED. If the current through the LED is regulated with a simple series resistor, then the output of the light will be temperature dependent. If the LED's are held at constant current, then light output won't change. So the behavior of the light at low temperature is really a design issue, probably driven by how much you want to pay.

Likewise, simplistic charging circuits could suffer from similar issues. Lithium batteries are a special case because they have a thermal runaway mode, and can asplode if they're not charged under the correct range of conditions.
Gresp15C is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-17, 05:23 PM
  #37  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 20,828

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, an orange one and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 81 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2117 Post(s)
Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
was reading safety warnings for a car battery charger I got yesterday. one of the warnings was never charge a frozen battery. they didn't say why but there's probably a good reason. was gonna take it out of my kids car, bring it inside to charge it overnite. but the warnings about gas clouds & explosions, etc had me doubting the idea. eventually my mechanic said he'd go check it out & it was probably the starter anyway
First it's damned difficult to freeze a car battery. The electrolyte in the battery drops the freezing point significantly. The solution in the battery is about 25% sulfuric acid which drops the freezing point to -25C (-4F for the metrically challenged). Most of the stuff you find on the web says that a discharged battery freezes around the freezing point of water but I suspect that just Internet plagiarism at work. A fully charged battery doesn't freeze until around -60C (-75F).

For a frozen battery, I suspect that the explosion risk is due to a higher charge being forced into a solid rather than a liquid. This probably starts gas formation...water splitting...and results in increases in pressure in the battery which can probably be highly localized.
__________________
Stuart Black
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
An Good Ol' Fashion Appalachian Butt Whoopin'.
cyccommute is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-17, 05:54 PM
  #38  
Gresp15C
Senior Member
 
Gresp15C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,401
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 528 Post(s)
Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
First it's damned difficult to freeze a car battery. The electrolyte in the battery drops the freezing point significantly. The solution in the battery is about 25% sulfuric acid which drops the freezing point to -25C (-4F for the metrically challenged). Most of the stuff you find on the web says that a discharged battery freezes around the freezing point of water but I suspect that just Internet plagiarism at work. A fully charged battery doesn't freeze until around -60C (-75F).

For a frozen battery, I suspect that the explosion risk is due to a higher charge being forced into a solid rather than a liquid. This probably starts gas formation...water splitting...and results in increases in pressure in the battery which can probably be highly localized.
I wonder if current would even flow if the electrolyte were solid.
Gresp15C is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-17, 05:56 PM
  #39  
rumrunn6
Senior Member
 
rumrunn6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 21,543

Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2597 Post(s)
auto batteries aside. I wonder if a bike light battery, best practice, would be to let a very cold battery warm up inside a little while before plugging it in
rumrunn6 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-17, 09:22 PM
  #40  
Gresp15C
Senior Member
 
Gresp15C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,401
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 528 Post(s)
Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
auto batteries aside. I wonder if a bike light battery, best practice, would be to let a very cold battery warm up inside a little while before plugging it in
Probably a good idea, since the charger may be designed to operate at its best within a certain temperature range. If it's a lithium battery, it may have a built-in temperature sensor (typically a third terminal) that the charger uses to help control the charging process and prevent thermal runaway.

I wonder if it makes sense to just have two batteries, and use them on alternate days.
Gresp15C is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-17, 07:46 AM
  #41  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 20,828

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, an orange one and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 81 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2117 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Gresp15C View Post
I wonder if current would even flow if the electrolyte were solid.
I don't see why not. There are solid electrolytes and most conductors are solid. The fact that there is an explosion risk for changing a frozen battery says to me that there is current flow. It's probably not fast and resistance would be high but enough current is going in to split the water molecules.
__________________
Stuart Black
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
An Good Ol' Fashion Appalachian Butt Whoopin'.
cyccommute is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-17, 07:52 AM
  #42  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 20,828

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, an orange one and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 81 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2117 Post(s)
Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
auto batteries aside. I wonder if a bike light battery, best practice, would be to let a very cold battery warm up inside a little while before plugging it in
Yes. According to Battery University:

Many battery users are unaware that consumer-grade lithium-ion batteries cannot be charged below 0C (32F). Although the pack appears to be charging normally, plating of metallic lithium can occur on the anode during a sub-freezing charge.
Plating of metallic lithium is a very bad thing! Lithium metal doesn't like to be metal and will aggressively strip oxygen from water. That's not the problem, however. The hydrogen left behind combines and the oxygen stripping is hot so the whole thing goes BOOOOOOOOM!
__________________
Stuart Black
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
An Good Ol' Fashion Appalachian Butt Whoopin'.
cyccommute is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-17, 07:58 AM
  #43  
rumrunn6
Senior Member
 
rumrunn6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 21,543

Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2597 Post(s)
how long would it take a .6 lb bike battery to go from 17F to 50F in a 65F home?

Last edited by rumrunn6; 12-21-17 at 08:45 AM.
rumrunn6 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-17, 08:38 AM
  #44  
mcours2006
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
mcours2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Toronto, CANADA
Posts: 5,436

Bikes: Giant Rapid, Bianchi Advantage, Specialized Roubaix, 1985 Gardin Quatro, Norco Threshold, Raleigh Serengheti MTB

Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1609 Post(s)
Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
how long would it take a 2lb bike battery to go from 17F to 50F in a 65F home?
Your light battery is 2 pounds?
mcours2006 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-17, 08:45 AM
  #45  
rumrunn6
Senior Member
 
rumrunn6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 21,543

Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2597 Post(s)
Originally Posted by mcours2006 View Post
Your light battery is 2 pounds?
oh sorry, I was estimating & I was waaaay off. turns out it's only 0.6 pounds

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
rumrunn6 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-18, 08:03 PM
  #46  
esmith2039
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Kansas City, KS
Posts: 614
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Originally Posted by esmith2039 View Post
I've noticed the same with my Bright Eyes head light, the tail light doesn't seem to effect it. In the winter it only last 4 days versus 5 in the summer.
Reviving this thread since it made me think.. Last year the batteries typically lasted what I put above. This year it wasn't even lasting a day. Finally figured out why! Last year put the batteries in the panniers typically wedged with junk around it, the light I have has extensions. This year just had it attached to the stem. I moved it back last weekend and indeed it lasted 3 days this week or all week. Maybe someone needs to come up with a battery insulator!
esmith2039 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-18, 08:57 AM
  #47  
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 38,204

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 150 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5826 Post(s)
My Nite Ridr Halogen was a cord remote battery.. 20 years ago , battery under your coat , helmet mount.. waterproof.
fietsbob is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-18, 12:23 PM
  #48  
no motor?
Senior Member
 
no motor?'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 5,836

Bikes: Specialized Hardrock

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 753 Post(s)
Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
how long would it take a .6 lb bike battery to go from 17F to 50F in a 65F home?
I store my bike inside, and usually wait until after I've changed clothes, heard the cats report on how sad she is etc... and figure that the battery has warmed up enough by then - usually 10 to 20 minutes. The batteries don't get too cold during the ride home from being stored indoors at work, and the use helps keep them warm.
no motor? is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-18, 08:30 PM
  #49  
KD5NRH
Senior Member
 
KD5NRH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Stephenville TX
Posts: 3,731

Bikes: 2010 Trek 7100

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 697 Post(s)
Originally Posted by mtb_addict View Post
It must be normal for Lithium battery. Even $100k electric Tesla car batteries struggle in cold. Nytimes guy got stranded because the range in winter was much much less than advertised.

I'm so glad I invested in dynamo headlight and taillight. No batteries.
Maybe you should work on redesigning the dynamo to work on Tesla wheels so they can charge themselves while driving and have infinite range.
KD5NRH is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-18, 08:47 AM
  #50  
mcours2006
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
mcours2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Toronto, CANADA
Posts: 5,436

Bikes: Giant Rapid, Bianchi Advantage, Specialized Roubaix, 1985 Gardin Quatro, Norco Threshold, Raleigh Serengheti MTB

Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1609 Post(s)
Since OP I've started bringing in my batteries inside. It's an extra step in the morning to remount them but they are lasting much longer.
mcours2006 is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service