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Winter Build Out Rack/Fender?
I recently relocated to Minneapolis from the much more temperate Spokane, WA.
I have a 1991 Trek 7900 that I've wanted to build out into a CX inspired winter commuter for some time, but never really had the excuse in WA. No, I didn't move to MN just to build the bike out. But almost. Any recommendations on rear rack/fender situations? I have Ortlieb "front" panniers I'd like to throw back there but don't mind a little jerry-riggin' to stop them flapping around. Now, I know it's kinda stupid to design a winter commuter around style, but I do want to take the cyclocross "vibe" into this bike (it'd been floating around in my mind for quite a while). Something like this actually seems to fit, though when I built out my last commuter seatpost connected racks were a big no-no (looks like they've gotten better?). Naturally I've forgotten if it has brazeons on the upper seatstays.... :foo: For anyone curious, I'm throwing some late 90's RSX shifters on it with a set of Salsa Cowbells and Schwalbe studded 700x40's. Any other recommendations, let me know! Bike currently looks like this: https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3fac14adba.jpg |
Originally Posted by Nickfrogger
(Post 20661976)
For a seven-mile commute to work, I'd probably focus more on riding a bike and tires that I felt confident on in traffic.
For anyone curious, I'm throwing some late 90's RSX shifters on it with a set of Salsa Cowbells and Schwalbe studded 700x40's. Any other recommendations, let me know! |
Welcome to da North, ya hey. ;)
In my view, there are two things about fenders during the winter. First, in wet, heavy snow, you can get enough buildup between the tire and the fender, that the bike grinds to a halt, or the fender gets mangled. I've had this happen with close fitting fenders. Second, the plastic has more of a tendency to crack when it gets cold. On the other hand, full coverage fenders are thought to help keep the bike clean, by letting the salt and gunk run down the inside of the fender and onto the ground. So there are tradeoffs everywhere. I've had good luck with the old fashioned MTB style fenders that I've seen under a variety of brand names, such as SKS model 10081. These are also not terribly expensive. Mine have lasted several winters. The same model seems to fit 26" or 700c equally well / poorly. Check your Craig for tires. Down here in Madison, it seems like people have been selling off studded tires, so keep your eye out for deals. |
I haven't had the snow-in-the-fender problem yet, so I can't speak of that. But I can say that full fenders are best if you don't face that problem.
I suggest you consider a front rack for your panniers. My panniers are in front, and I love them there. I generally use them only when I have a lot to carry. Other times, I wear a cycling backpack. How regularly do you expect to commute by bike? |
Originally Posted by JonathanGennick
(Post 20662506)
Do it! I totally support. A little style and panache are what make these sort of builds fun.
You're in Minnesota now. You should be running 45NRTH. LOL! Just kidding, but I'll give a shout to their Gravdals. I installed my set the other day. They are at the moment my favorite winter tire for commuting on, and just enough tread to help when there's a little bit of accumulated snow on the roads. |
Originally Posted by Gresp15C
(Post 20662575)
Welcome to da North, ya hey. ;)
In my view, there are two things about fenders during the winter. First, in wet, heavy snow, you can get enough buildup between the tire and the fender, that the bike grinds to a halt, or the fender gets mangled. I've had this happen with close fitting fenders. This is primarily what I want to avoid going the MTB route. Happened to me when I lived in WI and even happened while running slicks a couple times in WA.
Originally Posted by noglider
(Post 20662592)
I suggest you consider a front rack for your panniers. My panniers are in front, and I love them there. I generally use them only when I have a lot to carry. Other times, I wear a cycling backpack.
How regularly do you expect to commute by bike? I can’t think of a time that I’ve fallen in snow that wasn’t as a result of losing front tire traction, either... I probably prefer the weight in the back for that reason. As far as regularity, I imagine some form of riding every day. Most things I need to get to are ~4 miles or less, so I don’t see any reason to go another route. My car doesn’t start below 30°f (old VW diesel pickup), so it’s either biking or the bus! |
Originally Posted by Nickfrogger
(Post 20663217)
After hanging out with the CX UCI guys in the UP, I kind of felt like I’d be a poser with 45NRTH for commuting. I’m still debating about their clipless boots... they comfy. BUT I had no idea they did studded tires! I’m going to take you up on that recommendation.
Boots: Some of their models look great. I wish they'd do a version for flat pedals. I'm not a clipless person. Tires: Grab the 120 tpi ones if you can. I like mine and how well they conform to the snow surface when snow is packed on the streets. They are the widest that will fit the fenders on my commuter bike, and I've not found anything that looks to be better given the typical street conditions where I live. |
Oh right, I didn't think about front panniers on snow. I guess that's a dumb idea. I don't ride in snow much because around here, it's too dangerous with the way they plow and how it turns to slush. Sometimes I ride my bike on snow. Sometimes I ride Citi Bike. Citi Bike works well because it's very upright and heavy, and the tires are wide.
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I use a front pannier rack,
with the bags , on my 20" wheel bike they're at rack top height, so with D rings on the bags a stretch net allows the combined width 2 panniers and rack, to bring home Pizzas, (boxed hot or take & Bake) & etc. but bag mass is still low.. I have a 26" wheel MTB with studded tires for when roads are icy,, which is brief and not seasonal on the coast.. |
I hate studded tires. Unless I'm riding where there is slick or black ice. Is that an issue for you? I do tend to ride fender-less in snow (for reasons mentioned above). Snow doesn't need fenders. But if its above freezing (and wet/slushy) - fenders can be almost mandatory.
I tend to use a fenderless mountain bike with studs when it is below freezing and the conditions may call for glare ice. Above freezing, I use a 700c bike with fenders. |
Originally Posted by chas58
(Post 20663326)
I hate studded tires. Unless I'm riding where there is slick or black ice. Is that an issue for you? I do tend to ride fender-less in snow (for reasons mentioned above). Snow doesn't need fenders. But if its above freezing (and wet/slushy) - fenders can be almost mandatory.
I tend to use a fenderless mountain bike with studs when it is below freezing and the conditions may call for glare ice. Above freezing, I use a 700c bike with fenders. As far as fenders, I’m going to go smaller MTB route I think; I do have a really super cheap full coverage fender on the back, and I may wait until my studs rip it off before “upgrading” :lol: I stripped the donor, swapped casettes, and mounted up the Gravdols and 105 deraillieur today (I hear my canti brakes are fine with RSX, any ideas if my Deore stuff will work upfront? Travel looks to be the same): https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0e9d83181.jpeg Ran into an issue with the stem being 1 1/8in rather than 1” and couldn’t find the appropriate adapter in town, so now I’m waiting for a special order :troll: Oh well. Weather is nice enough here for cruising on the 520 (which still has slicks on it). |
Originally Posted by Nickfrogger
(Post 20664841)
I stripped the donor, swapped casettes, and mounted up the Gravdols and 105 deraillieur today
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Originally Posted by JonathanGennick
(Post 20664846)
Bike looks good! Is the direction of rotation backward on that front tire?
My philosophy here was there’s no torque on the front tire so V pointed forwards would give better traction. I’ll fix the skewer later :thumb: |
Originally Posted by Nickfrogger
(Post 20664852)
Maybe? I’ve literally only run slicks. I actually flipped it a couple times. Do want the V pointed forwards for the front tire (on the ground) or the same direction as the back tire?
My philosophy here was there’s no torque on the front tire so V pointed forwards would give better traction. Here is the best photo I could find that shows how I have mine mounted: https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a1af0427c9.jpg |
Originally Posted by JonathanGennick
(Post 20664871)
V forward is what I do. There's a directional arrow marked on the tire, I think. I do V forward on both tires, actually. Apologies if you have them that way. It was hard for me to tell from the photo.
Here is the best photo I could find that shows how I have mine mounted: https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a1af0427c9.jpg I just ran out to check, looks like I’m running V Edit: swapped the words “backwards” and “forwards.” I cornfused. |
Originally Posted by Nickfrogger
(Post 20664886)
No, you’re right. The tread in the photo is definitely V
BTW, I have heard of people running the V backward on rear tires. Tried it myself once on a mountain bike. Couldn't tell the difference, but results may vary. |
Originally Posted by JonathanGennick
(Post 20664908)
It was the side knobs that clued me in. Hard to believe my eye even caught those. I couldn't make the Vs in your photo at all.
BTW, I have heard of people running the V backward on rear tires. Tried it myself once on a mountain bike. Couldn't tell the difference, but results may vary. with the front, the bead just got slightly bent/crinkled at some point). |
convert
Originally Posted by Nickfrogger
(Post 20664841)
I’ll have my normal commuter for fair-weather days, but I’ve already had some scary moments where ice protrudes into the road and I don’t have anywhere to go. I’ve never run studs before, but I think the Minneapolis weather makes them worth it. As far as fenders, I’m going to go smaller MTB route I think; I do have a really super cheap full coverage fender on the back, and I may wait until my studs rip it off before “upgrading” :lol: I stripped the donor, swapped casettes, and mounted up the Gravdols and 105 deraillieur today (I hear my canti brakes are fine with RSX, any ideas if my Deore stuff will work upfront? Travel looks to be the same): https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0e9d83181.jpeg Ran into an issue with the stem being 1 1/8in rather than 1” and couldn’t find the appropriate adapter in town, so now I’m waiting for a special order :troll: Oh well. Weather is nice enough here for cruising on the 520 (which still has slicks on it). bottom ID 1" ( inside of 1.125" fork 1/16" wall steering tube).. They're 1 1/8" OD at the top ,, a steel tube flaring in the center.. there are machined aluminum ones too.. ... |
Well, it’s no glamour shot but the 7900 drop conversion is done! JonathanGennick, thank you for the Gravdal recommendation; I just took these out on some ice and snow covered leaf piles and I’m blown away! The shifting still needs some adjustment and cables need to be trimmed, I need a front fender situation, and I need some spacers for the threadless converter, but the handling is amazing. Can’t wait to hit the roads! I wound up getting a trial Cambium for a bargain at one of the many LBS’s, so that was cool. Anywho, the original intent of this thread was a rear fender/rack combo. I don’t mind my Walmart special for the rack, but the skinny fender lasted about 5 minutes before getting gummed up. What are y’all running with your racks? Seems like the MTB fenders all attach to the seatpoast and won’t fit under a rack... https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0cde51486.jpeg |
Originally Posted by Nickfrogger
(Post 20685648)
Anywho, the original intent of this thread was a rear fender/rack combo. I don’t mind my Walmart special for the rack, but the skinny fender lasted about 5 minutes before getting gummed up. What are y’all running with your racks? Seems like the MTB fenders all attach to the seatpoast and won’t fit under a rack...
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ed235d5577.jpg |
That’s a cool bike. I just picked up a 700 Multitrack a few weeks ago and am building it up in a similar fashion. Assuming my packages arrive tomorrow, I’ll be fitting drop bars and bar end shifters, new brake levers, new cables/housings. The fenders I ordered are SKS Bluemels in matte black. They are like the longboards but shorter and a little cheaper. I don’t think I’ll have those for another week or so. I have a set installed off an omafiets project in the shed until they arrive. I would be surprised if a 40mm tire will fit under a fender on mine. I have a pair of 38s and it was close enough that I began to wonder about how much snow or mud would clear before it started clogging things up. I’ll be ordering 35mm studded tires this weekend, although I haven’t yet decided which one. I considered the 45NRTH Gravdal (38mm nominally) briefly but I found some literature from the manufacturer saying it measured out to over 40mm installed. As I understand it, Schwalbe and Nokian/Suomi studded tires tend to run truer to size and aren’t available in a 38 anyway, only 35 and 40 (around that size). Regarding rear rack, I had a spare that I put on to hang a single pannier from just to get my backpack off my back. If I update it later for style points, I’m considering the axiom streamliner, it’s slim and angled, designed for panniers. Sleek. I think the Multitrack frames look great with drop bars. |
Originally Posted by Phamilton
(Post 20685772)
I’ll be ordering 35mm studded tires this weekend, although I haven’t yet decided which one. I considered the 45NRTH Gravdal (38mm nominally) briefly but I found some literature from the manufacturer saying it measured out to over 40mm installed. As I understand it, Schwalbe and Nokian/Suomi studded tires tend to run truer to size
My set of Gravdals do measure out to 38 mm installed. Their profile is wide toward the top though, and their profile can make a difference if you're trying to finesse the 38 mm Gravdals under some fenders designed for 32 mm tires. I have the 120 tpi version if that makes a difference. Am just throwing out my above experience in case it helps. |
Originally Posted by JonathanGennick
(Post 20686019)
Five sets of Nokian/Suomi over the past decade, and all run narrow. Most recently my 54 mm Stud 62 tire (Suomi) measures out at 47 mm installed. My 40 mm A10s I think measure at 38 mm, so are the closest to being correct. I loaned them to a friend, so can't measure them again right now to be sure.
My set of Gravdals do measure out to 38 mm installed. Their profile is wide toward the top though, and their profile can make a difference if you're trying to finesse the 38 mm Gravdals under some fenders designed for 32 mm tires. I have the 120 tpi version if that makes a difference. Am just throwing out my above experience in case it helps. |
Originally Posted by JonathanGennick
(Post 20686019)
Five sets of Nokian/Suomi over the past decade, and all run narrow. Most recently my 54 mm Stud 62 tire (Suomi) measures out at 47 mm installed. My 40 mm A10s I think measure at 38 mm, so are the closest to being correct. I loaned them to a friend, so can't measure them again right now to be sure.
My set of Gravdals do measure out to 38 mm installed. Their profile is wide toward the top though, and their profile can make a difference if you're trying to finesse the 38 mm Gravdals under some fenders designed for 32 mm tires. I have the 120 tpi version if that makes a difference. Am just throwing out my above experience in case it helps. |
[MENTION=390976]Phamilton[/MENTION], do you get much ice there?
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Originally Posted by Phamilton
(Post 20689161)
To complicate things further (because that's what I like to do), I'm also thinking that since I have a spare set of wheels I won't ever bother with riding the studs at higher pressure when roads are clear - I'll just ride my street tires on my other set of wheels. So in theory how the studded tire performs when aired down vs. up is irrelevant. If the gravdals will fit, I think that'd be great.
It's a weird dynamic...when there's both snow and ice on the ground your tires can often still get some sort of traction. It's the sheer ice where the studs really make a huge difference between grip vs no grip whatsoever. And sheer ice typically shows up on "cleared" roads, and in the spring or fall when it snows/melts/refreezes. |
My neighborhood hardly ever gets plowed so if it’s slick on my street, the studs will be on. It’s not uncommon to have stretches of a few weeks without precipitation. I don’t really want to ride 800-1000g tires 12 miles each way unless I have to. I do have the ability to work from home if roads are really bad. If it’s a typical winter, I should be able to ride street tires 50% of the time. I think studded tires will get me to work 90%+ of the time. That’s my prediction anyway. My boss doesn’t mind swinging past to pick me up if he needs me in the office, he runs morning errands before work within a mile or two of my house. I consider myself quite lucky regarding my current employment. 38mm tires will NOT fit under fenders on this bike, so the Gravdals are out. Too tight at the chainstay bridge. Edit: I don’t want to delude myself about it, so if push comes to shove I’ll leave the studded tires on. I’m sure I’ll appreciate it more when street tires go back on for the first time in however long. I did the commute for a few weeks last winter on knobby 26” tires. It’s doable but I wouldn’t want to do it all the time. |
For what it’s worth, the rolling resistance of the studs and low pressure compared to slicks was way less than I thought on pavement. Yeah, it’s noticeable, but in the context of winter clothes/gloves/goggles/biking safely/traffic going a bit slower, I don’t really notice it. Im sure switching back to slicks in the spring will be freeing, along with shedding some of the winter gear, but I’m just gonna ride my studs until I know I won’t hit black ice. After all, we’re commuting, not racing :) On a different note, any good rim brake pad choices? I’m thinking I’ll just do Salmons unless someone has a better recommendation (I’m pretty sure the pads I have are original/hard af). |
Originally Posted by Nickfrogger
(Post 20690805)
For what it’s worth, the rolling resistance of the studs and low pressure compared to slicks was way less than I thought on pavement. Yeah, it’s noticeable, but in the context of winter clothes/gloves/goggles/biking safely/traffic going a bit slower, I don’t really notice it. Im sure switching back to slicks in the spring will be freeing, along with shedding some of the winter gear, but I’m just gonna ride my studs until I know I won’t hit black ice. After all, we’re commuting, not racing :) On a different note, any good rim brake pad choices? I’m thinking I’ll just do Salmons unless someone has a better recommendation (I’m pretty sure the pads I have are original/hard af). I'm no racer. I'm not a strong cyclist. Heavy tires/low inflation pressures are fatiguing to me. If I break 20mph during the course of a week's riding, it's because I was riding downhill and had a tailwind. |
[MENTION=288568]Nickfrogger[/MENTION], here's how the 45mm Bluemels mounted up. The front mudflap hangs pretty low, but I could make it even lower if I move the bracket behind the fork. A person could squeeze a 53mm fender in, there should be room under the seatstay bridge and it could probably flex to fit between the fork blades, and it would give better coverage for a wider tire. But on my Multitrack, the chainstay bridge is the limiting factor. I don't know whether all Multitracks have one or not, but it's what keeps mine from having room for a 38mm tire plus fender. The tires pictured measure 35mm wide and 32mm high on my rims. If you've never installed SKS fenders before, some people say they're a chore, but I've put them on my wife's bike and another bike of mine and they're not bad. It took me about 30 minutes to have them installed, but I spent a couple hours fiddling to see if I could squeeze a 38 in w/o success. Leave the ends of the fender stays uncut for a while, they'll shift and bend a little over time until they settle in.
Damn, my bike is filthy. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...245e0a6a69.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e499f40796.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b27cd8e763.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...666d9e6a53.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1141680b11.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...10a9c05f33.jpg |
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