Given the Choice - Front or Rear
 

where would you put the rack and panniers? I'm building up yet another bike, something to do both hauling on the commute (those times when I've got to haul crap to/from work) and something that I can maybe throw a change of clothes, gear and chow into and do overnight trips up into the Adaks.

I'd do both ends but it seems like overkill.

There are some things that reasonable people can disagree about, but I don't think this is one of them. Put it on the rear.

If you put it on the front only, breaking would be dangerous--it would encourage your rear wheel to flip over the front. Very bad.

On the back, the panniers weigh down the rear wheel, which increases stopping efficiency.

Edited to correct type-o.

+1

A load on either end of the bike is going to increase drag. If you load the front more than the rear you will have a bike that will want to swap ends on you in :eek: situations.

On the rear, as the weight of the load wouldn't affect steering response.

If you need to load front and rear, put the heavier load on the rear.

The old delivery bikes, like Schwinn Cycletrucks, had big front carriers. However, they were mounted in such a way that the load was supported by the frame more evenly, and used a smaller front tire to make more room in the carrier and lower its center of gravity.

Rear. The front is for times when you're hauling a LOT of stuff or touring.

For practical purposes, on a normal bike, that's not true.

Carrying anything on a rack OR on your back will make it a little more difficult to ride up hills.

On flat ground, 20lbs of stuff on a rack or on your back will probably slow you down a few seconds for every hour of riding.

P.S.- it's true, if you want to be as safe as possible when braking hard, put stuff on the back rather than the front.

Drag ?

If they are put in the front you get the full flat surface as your leading edge = high drag.

If they are put in the back you have your legs as the leading edge = reduced drag

Put em in back and gain speed !!!

Given my shape and size, its hardly a factor ( what's the wind resistance of a charging rhino? ). Thanks for all the answers guys, guess it was rather obvious.

I've actually gravitated towards a rear rack and a small Nitto up front. I'm thinking of doing the doubled up threadless stem trick and using the lower bar to hold handlebar bag (with support from beneath provided by the Nitto). Bonus is I can get my primary bars that much higher and have additional space for mounting my lights.

Freakin aeBike now has the lil blue LHT for ~$300. Was going with a Cross-Check, now I'm going in circles.

What is the difference between the green and blue ones? (besides the $120 price)

The green ones make you horny. No, wait, that's M&M's.



The baby poop green ones are last years models. Blue and Cherry are this years colors. AeBike will quite often set lower prices than others utilizing the QBP catalog site. And quite often a phone call will get you better pricing.

Definitely the rear.

I have been using my front rack w/panniers for about 3 weeks now. The steering is different at low speeds, with it being a little more 'twichly'. My homemake rack is a bit heavy, so that is part of it, althought I do carry quite of bit of stuff to work everyday. I do find the weight distribution better, and at speed I don't really find the handling that much different. YMMV.

On the rear is more stable than the front.

You can carry more in rear panniers than front.

You can strap additional stuff on top of a rear pannier rack.

Rear is the way to go.

I'll be one of those reasonable people who will disagree with you on this. A loaded front fork is no more dangerous than an unloaded front wheel with respect to braking. Adding even 30+ pounds to the front wheel is not a problem. The bulk of the weight of the bike is on the rear wheel in all normal situations anyway (the rider mass is closer to the rear wheel). Although I haven't (and won't :D ) do the math, I don't think any amount of weight added to the front wheel using a low-rider rack could contribute to pitch over using any brake system you might want to suggest. There is no moment of angular momentum that could be imparted to the pannier load because the pannier sits over the pivot point.

I have used lowriders and panniers on the front of many bikes without loads other than myself on the rear wheel and pitch over is just not a problem. In fact, the steering is dampened and control of the bike is enhanced using front bags only.

This is incorrect. Suggestions for carrying loads on touring bikes are for a 60%/40% front:rear split. Try loading 50 or 60 lbs on the rear wheel and going for a ride. The bike will handle like a drunken squirrel especially on downhills at nearly any speed. The bike want to wander all over the place. That much weight on the rear wheel will lighten the front wheel so much that steering will be vague at best.

Loading the front wheel does slow steering but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Dampening the steering makes the bike more stable. Steering input is slowed but under load this isn't a bad thing. The last thing you want is a twitchy quick steering bike with extra weight on it.

Blackburn and Bicycling Magazine did an engineering study long ago (back when Bicycling wasn't just a shill for new products :D ) on loading a touring bike and their findings are where the 60/40 split comes from, as well as the recommendation for low-riders on the front. Curiously, low-riders on the rear adversely affect handling.

Fronts. The idea that bags on the front will make you more susceptible to pitch-over or make the bike handle poorly are just wrong. I've been riding with most of the weight on the front wheel for a very long time and the bike has no issues whether I'm carrying 20 lbs of clothes and food to work or if I'm carrying 60% of a 60lb touring load.

I don't know which is better front or rear ( I always use rear because it is easier) but I will disagree with this quote. The pivot point for a pitch-over when braking hard is the ground contact with the front tire not the axle. Low rider panniers do reduce the angular momentum compared to say a handlebar bag but it is still worse than a rear mounted load.
Now if you are talking about hitting log or hole off-road that stops your wheel without braking then the pivot point will be the axle and your statement will be true.

Craig

The axle has to be the center of the pivot point since the axle is the center of the angular momentum. The contact patch is on a shorter arm from the pivot point then the rest of the bicycle load. If you stop the wheel dead while moving forward (which is the only time that you can have pitch-over), the load on the bike wants to pivot around the center of the axle which is the center of the angular momentum. That's why the panniers don't contribute to the risk of pitch-over. They are at the center of angular momentum where they contribution would be near zero.

I put the weight on the rear simply because it is easier. There is reason to believe that the front may be a better choice, but I haven't ever tested this theory. I do know that, even with only a moderate load on the back (~15 lbs), I get kind of a squirrely feeling taking corners while accelerating over 10mph, like the front wheel is trying to wash out to the outside of the turn. This "understeer" feeling is VERY disturbing on a bicycle. I don't appreciate the degree to which front panniers dampen steering, but it would be more stable.

. . . until you have to stop.

Well, I don't know about you, but I put my foot on the ground when I come to a stop ;). I've lost balance on a stopped bike with rear panniers. Even with my feet on the ground and a firm grip on the bike, once the weight on the rear has tipped more than a couple inches to the side, it just pulls the bike down, dragging the front wheel with it. I haven't ridden with just front panniers, but they prevent that sort of thing from happening by weighing down the front of the bike. Given the location, I don't see front panniers making balance any worse than rear ones do, and likely better.

Don't get me wrong - from a practical standpoint, I'm with you. I just don't think that the argument that weight is more stable on the rear rack is convincing.

I wasn't talking about falling sideways. I was talking about having your rear end flip over you. If you have weight on the rear tire, you can apply the front brake far more aggressively and stop much more quickly. If you have weight on the front tire, you must be much more gentle with the brakes. And in traffic, sometimes you need aggressive breaking.

Your rear end will not flip over you if you have a load on the front wheel. I have toured and commuted with front panniers only for a very long time and there is absolutely no issue with pitch-over over what you would expect on any bike. Even under aggressive braking conditions.

A heavily loaded rear wheel will result in the handling issues addressed by grolby, however. I find that even a lightly loaded rack bag will affect the steering, sometimes in very unpleasant ways.

Can anyone say balance? Too much weight either front or rear will have negative effects. You want to balance your loads across the frame - consider that your body is pretty much centered, maybe with a bit more weight on the front axle than the rear, depending upon your riding position. Adding some weight to the rear (starting from just your body on the bike) might actually provide better overall distribution of all of your weight on the bike. From there...a little more on the front, a little more on the rear...a little for Santa...a little more for Santa...

I've got to agree with Stuart, Daily Commute. Adding weight to the front wheel won't effect the point at which the rear wheel lifts off the ground. Let's think about a bicycle with an applied front brake as a third class lever. A third class lever is one where the force (the braking force trying to lift the rear wheel into the air) comes between the resistance (the weight over the rear wheel, keeping it on the ground) and the fulcrum (the hub of your front wheel).

An endo happens when the mass of the rider shifts toward the front wheel (which is the fulcrum on our third-class lever) under hard braking, reducing the force pushing the rear tire onto the ground. This force acts against the braking force, which is trying to swing the "lever" (your bike) up into the air. Shift it far forward enough, and there is no longer enough force on the rear tire to prevent it leaving the ground. Mountain bikers stick their butts back behind the seat when braking to increase the resisting force, which allows them, in turn, to brake harder. Luckily, because a bicycle acts like a third-class lever in this situation, the braking force must be greater than the resisting force in order to lift the rear tire.

The reason I'm describing this in terms of a lever is because force and mass at the fulcrum aren't relevant. Adding mass (panniers) at the front wheel, especially down low at the hub, simply does not effect the liklihood of doing an endo during hard braking. It will effect the stopping distance under a given amount of braking force, but added mass will have that effect no matter where it is on the bicycle. A bicycle with weight on the rear wheel is less likely to do an endo than a bike without weight on the rear wheel, but the bike with front panniers is no more likely to flip than an unloaded one. I hope this makes sense to you - loading up just the front panniers doesn't put you in any more danger of going OTB than riding with it empty.

EDIT: Chipcom, the point that I'm making is that weight on the front wheel has little relevance to balance in terms of weight distribution. Balanced weight between front and rear has relevance only terms of handling, and even then, on balance (HA!), more weight on the front is less likely to have a negative influence than more on the back. The critical factor for balancing mass in the front panniers is the right/left distribution of weight, which is indeed very important. For this, among other reasons, I just load up the rear rack, where distribution from side to side isn't critical, but in simple terms of fore/aft weight distribution, you're better off with 15 extra pounds in front than in back.

I agree with balancing the weight. If any of you have ever ridden with a BOB or something similar heavily loaded, it really helps to have a front rack with something in it. I'd rather have a BOB and a front rack than just a BOB.

Chuckie

No worries, I wasn't disputing your point, merely stating that when considering front or rear, both is a better choice than one or the other.

What he said. In my defense, I am just a lowly chemist and it's been a long time since I had a physics class. I knew what I needed to say, I just didn't have the proper words. :D

Also to Chipcom, I will agree with you about the need to balance the load, if you were touring. However we are talking about a rather light load for commuting. Most people would not want to deal with 4 bags on a commute. I've found, through experience, that loading bags on the front wheel has benefits that loading the rear wheel just doesn't have.

To grolby: The right/left distribution isn't that critical. If you were several pounds heavier in one bag over the other, you would notice it but within a few pounds, it really isn't a problem. I notice a weight differential most at high speed on long downhills but otherwise it's not much of a problem. I lost a front bag and didn't see any effect on handling.

Same principal applies to commuting. Don't put all your eggs in one bag. :) Takes me just a few seconds to pull the handlebar bag, saddlebag and panniers off the bike. The bike is more agile and responsive with the weight evenly distributed, which to me is more important on my commute, dealing with traffic, than having an extra bag to pull off the bike.