So ... should I consider them for wifey's future tourer or not? .... She needs gears and I want things as simple as possible.

I dunno I have some old $10 Timex watches with mechanical innards inherited from my father that work just fine; tiny parts in confined spaces and all. In fact I don't think a zoot suit $3000 Rolex is any more reliable or requires less maintenance. But then I am not a StyleMan.

She won't go wrong with a 3 speed for reasonably flat terrain; or a 7 or 8 speed in hilly areas. Assumption: she is not in a racer mentality; not a StyleWoman; and doesn't read the opinions of know-it-alls and can make up her own mind about what she likes. My special advice: look for coaster brake equipped hubs. The brakes work always, no matter what she may be holding in her hand, in any road condition.

If I understand you right, then you claim that chain riding the same sprocket all the time causes less wear than a chain riding in several (+4-5) sprockets? You can't be serious then.
Of course you need change the single sprocket more often than you need change a cassette. Personally I don't find it a significant disadvantage against internal gear hubs that it is so; you need to change moving parts from time to time, so sometimes when you do a chain change, do a sprocket change too. Same goes with cassettes. I can buy nice nickle-chrome coated cassettes for $30 at my LBS, and I have a hard time believing that such a cassette wouldn't outlast a single sprocket at least 3 times.


Lots of issues here. But let me start to mention, that brifters aren't even an option for an internal gear hub. I have mentionend elsewere the superior amount of shifting technologies that exist for derailleurs; trigger shifters, grip shifters, bar end shifters, thumb shifters, brifters and even down tube shifters. All available for the derailleur user, enabling one to choose from a wide variety riding styles and bars; road bike bars (ergo, track, normal or randonneur style) , flat bars, riser bars, cow horns, moustache bars, TT-bars etc.

But lets compare;
You say a single front shifter (grip) for a Nexus 8 hub costs $25.
I say, get a Shimano or Sram grip shifter for derailleurs, it only costs $20 dollars on www.nashbar.com

Front shifter pricing doesn't play a role in this comparison, except your mentioning of it gives me a chance to gloat about the many wonderfull shifting options that exists for derailleur systems, but doesn't exists for internal gear hubs.

Same with cranks; You can use a single chain ring in front on both gearing systems, - end of story, except of course that it gives yet another chance to gloat about, that things like front derailleurs and trippel cranks are actual options for derailleur systems. Internal gear hub users doesn't even have the opppertunity to pay extra for the advantages these things give.

I really do think that I have demonstrated, that only derailleur+hub+cassette price plays a role in comparison. (mentioning other parts like front derailleurs, shifters or cranks, just show how limited options that exists for internal gear hubs). So lets look at prices and products (one should really do this for one self at your favorite LBS, but here we are )

Prices are from https://www.nashbar.com/
Shimano 105 RD-5600 SS 10-Speed Short $67.99
Shimano Ultgera 6600 10 speed Rear Hub $79.99
Shimano 105 HG70 9spd Cassette $29.99
Total=$177.97

(Sheldon)
Shimano Nexus 8 $200
Total= $200

The savings are $22, perhaps a little less if one desires another cassette.

There exists other combinations, one should check out SRAMs X-7 /X-9 series. Or perhaps one wants a 9-speed Dura-Ace Titanium hub with a Tiagra derailleur+cassette, for only slightly more.

Is the aboved priced derailleur system cheaper? yes.
Is it lighter? yes, probably, I don't bother to check it up.
Does it run with a lower friction? yes.
Is it more durable? Yes says I. Feel free to disagree, but one would have a hard time arguing that these high end components are less durable than a Nexus 8.
Does it require less maintenance? Yes says I, feel free to disagree, but one would have a hard time arguing that these high end components requires more maintenance than a Nexus 8.

Best of luck with your bike project, I think you are going to like it very much.

--
Regards

I got an excellent LBS and would have no problems accepting their maintenance recommendation (Campagnolo and Shimano Pro Shop certified). If anyone got a bad moneygrubbing and lying LBS, then please change. There are usually plenty of good shops around. That my colleague's new LBS recommended a low maintenance schedule is only fair, since he showed up with a hub ridden to destruction in little more than a year. And all good maintenance schedules are based on actual usage, since wear and tear varies so much between different persons because of different riding styles (stomping or spinning), weather (all or only fair), weight etc etc.
It is also better to perform maintenance before any actual problems occur. It is better to change the grease before it is contaminated, than wait until the hub feels "gritty", since bearings and cups may allready been subject to brineling then.

I have actual seen the exact model of the bike furthest to left in my neighborhood, didn't have a nice leather saddle though. The price is somewhat cheaper than here in Denmark, but Germany has some of the lowest bike part prices I know of. (Too bad that so many German shops doesn't accept credit cards, but you probably allready know how the germans fear/dislike credit cards)

That is very cheap, one could probably sell the rear wheel here in Denmark, and make a profit, while still having the rest of the bike, at that low price. People do however quote bulk prices on raw frames from asia that are extremely cheap, and I guess that S7 are cheaper in bulk too.
Believe it or not, I have an Raggazzi MTB (hard tail, no front susp.) in my cellar, I am going to make it into a beater bike, probably a single speed, perhaps I will try a fixie if I can get a cheap hub.

Your experience is dead on regarding Denmark too. I can find cheap bikes that are identical except for the gearing systems, where the derailleur version is actually cheaper than the SRAM S7 version, but this is very rare. Usually the factory put some fancier tires on the derailleur version, and sells it as an upmarket version at a higher price.
There are some movements at the market here in Denmark though, since the so called "Hybrid" bikes gives the discriminate commuter access to road bike quality components without sacreficing the more upright riding position. (at a price though).

--
Regards

If you like it now, then you probably will like it in a year or five too. About durability, then with normal use, and regular maintenance it should last "forever". Get a feel for how your hub rotates now when it is new. When it feels too different, or gritty, then have it serviced, or perhaps get it serviced every spring or autumn if you want to be nice to it by maintain it before any "grittyness" is felt.

You don't mention age or maker of your derailleur, but it must either be very old or cheap (or both) for it to rust. My bike stands outside probably 11 months a year, never even had trace of rust on my front derailleur (I ride on salted roads to, and even live near the sea). I even checked other old beater bikes on my street, and their (front) derailleurs where nice and shiny underneath the grease and grime. Any quality front derailleur are made of aluminium and stainless steel, and therefore have difficulty rusting. Salt water may corrode aluminium though (it becomes white and brittle). But a thin layer of grease should prevent any significant corrosion.
Regarding the spring, then don't clean it, just paste some grease on it, that protects it from almost anything one can throw at it.

Let's say 9 or 10 speed derailleur. 8 speed derailleur parts are usually very low end and cheap.
The high-low difference (gear range) on a Nexus is 307%
The high-low difference on a 9 speed 11-34 cassette is 309% (and has an extra gear as bonus)
So no need to indcalculate the price of an FD or a double crank.



--
Regards

You wouldn't need to buy the old Schwinn to come up with a Sturmey-Archer AW. They're quite easy to find "unattached".

Your idea of using the AW with a better rim and lightweight frame is a good one and one that is practiced more often than you might think. I've come across a few shops (don't remember any names) both in the U.S. and England that make a business of this type of rebuild. Mostly, they start with a Raleigh (or similar) sportster type frame, refinish it, build it up with alloy components and the result in a modernized version of the traditional English 3 speed.

I did a variation of this starting with a late '40's Schwinn lightweight frame. Since the bike was incomplete when I got it (no wheels, fenders, handlebars, seat) and '40's parts are hard to find, I put it together using more modern, lighter parts. It's great fun to ride and accelerates much better than, say, a '60's Schwinn 3 speed (I have one of those two).

All of this has nothing to do with the original thread, though I started reading it because I am intersted in the Nexus 8-speed. My thought had been to build a 21st Century version of my '40's bike. I'd heard that the Nexus was ok, but have no experience with it.

Regards,
Alan

Your first reply was that you have never personally tried a Nexus hub.

I have however tried a deraileur system (for about 10 years now), and am contemplating a Nexus Inter-8, Shimano's "Ultegra" level system, for commuting purposes simply because I am tired of destroying my drivetrain.

And whilst I have never tried a Nexus system (yet), I would think a single sprocket, thick BMX steel one, would last longer than a cassette, probably 3 cassettes even. As for chains, it is even better economy. Note that I am a year-round commuter including winter, and part of my route goes through foresty trails. Mud, grit, dirt, hills, salt, puddles, roads, etc etc. 35km daily.

I hope the Nexus lasts alot longer than my deraileur system!

Just to add to zzxxyy's post, SRAM sprockets for the S7 are reversible, as are most chainrings for single speed/hub gears. So with a perfect chainline and the fact that you effectively get to use them twice, I dare say they will last longer than a cassette.

This discussion is really getting nowhere. One guy thinks he has the definitive word on the hub gear/derailler debate, but despite all his ramblings he hasn't convonced me of anything. The main reason for this is that he doesn't even have any first hand experience! I've been using a SRAM S7 for commuting all winter here in Scotland where it rains a LOT and its been completely trouble free and it IS easier to clean than a derailler system. Now being easier to clean may not matter if you have an outhouse or a garage where you can clean your bike, but I live in a small apartment and have to strip and clean my bike indoors (the alternative being out on a busy street) so I appreciate the ease of cleaning.

I think its necessary to draw some distinction between the Shimano hub gear and offerings frrom SRAM and Rohloff. With few exceptions the persieved "problems" alluded to at length already have been with Shimano hubs and not the SRAM hubs (and defintely not the Rohloff). Most of the arguments by the aforementioned "expert" do not apply to the Rohloff (durability and gear range seem to be the main issues). I've been following the fortunes of a number of expeditions around the world where people were using Rohloffs and though they weren't always problem free, they convinced me that this hub IS superior to a derailler system. Initially I was extremely sceptical, but the Rohloff has proved itself to be a superb piece of German engineering that is excellent for its intended purpose.

I recently did a bit of loaded touring with an S7 and I believe that with the right choice of chainring and sprocket you do JUST get a big enough range (I had a 32 chainring with a 22 sprocket and could still spin at 35km/h in top gear which is enough for touring IMO). So in reply to huhenio, yes I think a hub gear would be suitable for your wife, but the general concensus here in the UK is that the SRAM S7 is functionally better than the shimano hubs and more durable.

In reply to Inetersted - your views have been expressed and you should now leave people to decide for themselves what is best for them.

I can vouch for that point. I spent several weekends at college campuses last summer. Never failed to chuckle when a student pedalled by with his neglected derailure bike squealling like crazy. Saw this very often.

If you're going to park it outside in the rain and snow for multiple years and never clean, adjust, or lube it, I think single speed, fixed gear, or internal geared hubs have the edge.

On the otherhand if you are storing in a garage and are willing to spend time cleaning road grime out of your gears, then derailleurs make sense. You can have a more efficient drive train with wider range of gears with derailures.

Internal geared hub with coaster brake. Hit as many pot holes as you like and the brake pads still don't rub. Change gears at stop lights. Never hear "honey, my chain came off again."

For me the only downside is cost. You pretty much have to build a custom wheel. You can't just use any old shifter you might already have. Gotta buy the matched shifter.

OK, the other downside is gear range. But, unless you live by mountains, you don't need it. I've taken the front derailleur off of my geared bike.

To further add to the deraileur cons, has anyone changed the jockey wheels? It surprised me that they cost so much for 2 pieces of little ole' wheels!

The cons for the internal hub I see, is the concentration of weight at the back of the wheel. I have tried, in a parking lot, a Rohloff equipped bike and I did not like it all. However, I believe that I can live with that because commuting drivetrain replaceables cost way too much for me.

Btw, this is just my personal 2 euro cents and from my own experience. YMMV.
cheers! zzxxyy, Germany

Eyeballing the thicker and more heavily built nature of a single sprocket, and the lack of fancypants shaping of the teeth, and that the chain isn't walking over them, ever, suggests to me that the advantage here lays with the single sprocket. It's worth putting some thought into the mechanism of chain and cog wear. Having a straight chainline (and a beefier chain to begin with) is to the benefit of all of these things.

I don't have a hard time believing it at all and I'm going to find out. The way to decide would be to find out how often single-speed riders have to change their chain and cog.

You mean that the police will get upset if I have a triple on the front and a internally geared hub on the rear? Of course, it's kind of unneccessary to do such a thing, since you don't really need the extra gearing range...


Well, you'd have to get an 11-34 cassette, for one, and a different rear derailer to match. And you're comparing a full service retail type of price with a deep discount price. Furthermore, the difference in chain saves you about $10 as well. I think it's about a wash, or even a slight advantage to the hub system.

Does a grip shifter on a rear derailer work as nicely as the grip shifter shifts the Nexus? I don't know, because my bike isn't finished yet, but I'll find out. It's not like it's hard for me to do the usual lift the wheel shift the gear gyrations at a stop sign; I do that now, but I'm looking forward to not having to worry about that.

I don't think there are too many people who would have too much trouble arguing any of these points. I'm going to find out. It would help if you compared with bits more actually comparable. I don't think it's cheaper. So, well, you're convincing to yourself, but not to other people, which is fine.

I'll grant you on weight and friction, but these are marginal (300grams, 4%) especially considering what these kinds of bikes are for. Durability under appropriate maintenance is a wash, but I think that maintenance is less for the internally geared hub; I'm expecting to have to repack it once every 10k miles or so, and will never need to do other adjustments. In terms of likelihood of being damaged as a result of some mishap, the internally geared hub absolutely wins hands down.

Basically, these things exist for a reason, not out of some sort of conspiracy or consumer stupidity or fear. The things you think are important in a shifting system are best satisfied with a derailer but other people have different priorities. The clue as to where these priorities are different are where you've had to stretch your reasoning.

Yes. I do however have some internal gear hub experience since at least five bikes (that I can remember) had internal gears, if it is my general experience regarding internal gear hubs you are fishing for.

I am sorry to hear you are destroying your derailleurs all the time, but I really have a hard time believing that you actual are wearing out quality derailleurs. If your derailleurs are destroyed, I politely suggest that they either where made of an inferior quality that pricewise doesn't compare to a expensive Nexus 8 hub, or that they were destroyed by other means than wear (crashes etc).

Regarding that someone (Shimano?) tries to designate the Nexus 8 as an "Ultegra" level hub, then I only regard it as a clever marketing ploy. I would be really surprised if Shimano actually wrote "Ultegra" on either the hub, or in their official marketing brochures. I do own a so called "Ultegra" level Shimano Dynamo hub; it doesn't quite actually have the word "Ultegra" on it, but Shimano seems to be good about spreading the word that some of their "Inter" components are of "Ultegra" level, without actually committing it to paper anywhere.
I do think however that the Shimano Nexus 8 probably is a fine hub compared to the many cheap hubs out there, though perhaps not comparable to their 105/Ultegra level.

Well, if you ever get to ride more than 21.000 miles (cassette x3) without needing to change your rear sprocket, please yell "I was right. I told you so 'interested' !" and feel very satisfied.
Personally I think that it is the other way around, based on what on what I hear from people riding fixies, and based on the fact that I see and hear that people having chain problems on their internal gear hubs.
When eg. installing a new chain on a internal gear hub bike, chain tensioning is important, since too tight a chain means heavy wear. As the chain "stretches" chain tensioning falls and the wheel needs readjustment, or one risks that the chain falls of, this often happens up hill, or when people really stomp on their pedals. If one carries a wrench it is easy to put the chain on again, but preventive maintenance is better.
I really don't think that chain budget looks different; I can get just as cheap low end chains for my derailleur as those used on internal gear hubs. internal gear hub on the other hand really has no other options; no nickle-chrome plated SRAM chains for you!

If you maintain it, it probably will last you a long time. If you ignore maintenance it will break at some point.
My point is however, that a Ultegra+105 derailleur and hub system, would be lighter, cheaper, gives more shifting options, more gears (especially if going double crank), has lower friction, lower maintenance (feel free to disagree, as long as you actually do maintenance on your Nexus), has longer or equal service life, besides allows the use of QR's and Nickle-chrome chains.
I am not trying convince you that you shouldn't buy the Nexus hub, it is your bike, use whatever you like on it. But I do hope to have dispelled some myths surrounding deraillers and internal gear hubs.

--
Regards

I meant my drivetrain disposables, ie chains, cassettes and chainrings. And unfortunately, they are XTR 8-sp components which are not too cheap. My commuter was a steel MTB, and after that year of commuting, I have sworn off deraileur systems for commuting purposes. Shifting gears with a mud/grit clogged drivetrain would have accelerated wear on it I am sure.

I consider myself a reasonably okay mechanic, and clean my drivetrain once every week or 2 weeks. Cleaning the bike in the dead of winter is not fun. :-) The drivetrain still wore out. Btw, they did not break on me. I am from the old skool, so I think myself as a gentle shifter which means backing off pressure, shift, slight, and full pressure. They wore out, and I put it to the conditions I was putting it through. It was simply not worth it, in my case, to clean it everyday which I would have to do.

You are right - on the initial costs, shifting options, more gears, lower friction etc. However, I would politely disagree on maintenance and costs over a long term.

I have 6 bikes, 5 of which are on deraileur systems ranging from Ultegra and Dura-Ace level to XTR. I am very familiar with deraileur systems.

My commuter? I am going Nexus.

That's right! Only $5 plain-jane-chains for me, available anywhere. Maintenance? - a squirt of Triflow every month or so. Retighten rear wheel to adjust stretch induced slack every six months or so. Dirty hands maintenance except when changing out after 10,000 mile or so = none. Changes in rear or front sprocket on my current SACHS/SRAM Specto7 commuter after about 20,000 miles = NONE. Chain/sprocket problems=NONE.

YMMV, especially if you believe too much "stuff" on the Internet.

In commuterland, this is the next big "what lube should I use" argument, i guess.

Well, just went out in our yard with my digital caliper and made some measurements:

On a "Kildemoes Logic" bike with a Shimano Nexus 8 hub (SG8R20 Rollerbrake) the rear sprocket was 2,5mm thick at base. The teeths became progressively thinner at the edges, just like on any track- rear sprocket I ever saw (Miche, Shimano, Surley), just like on a cassette.

On my own 9-speed cassette the largest rear sprocket measured 2.0 mm. It too became thinner at the edges.

On an old noname bike with a Shimano Inter-4 gear hub, the rear sprocket measured 3.0 mm. The sprocket became thinner at the edges, but not as much as the other two.

So some real world examples shows sprocket thickness varying between 22% and 33% thicker than my cassette, even considering the ramping grooves, it really isn't that much of a difference, but for arguments sake let me say that +50% more thickness equals 50% longer wear (linear). That means that if I spread the wear on my cassette to only 3 rear sprockets I would still be significantly ahead considering wear.
I really don't think that a cheap BMX-style sprocket is made of the same grade of steel as a Shimano 105 cassette, and steel quality (hardness) plays a role in how fast things wear out.


Please notice point 6 here: https://www.surlybikes.com/spew3.html
If they don't use real fixie hubs, they may need to change their chains and sprockets very often, which skewer the result to the advantage of cassettes.
I claim around 5-7.000 miles before a maintainend cassette wears out, when used by a roadie.


The police would wonder how you managed to change gears in front since you wouldn't have something to change chain tension with (like a derailleur). A further 3. degree interrogation would probably make you confess, that even if you could make this arrangement work, all you managed to to was to underscore the point, that in order for a internal gear hub to get more gears is, ta-da!, to turn it into a derailleur system.


I do think remember writing, that people ought spec the stuff at their own favorite LBS. Long discussions ensue, but the end result is, that I could spec something really good, much cheaper than an internal hub, so can anybody else trying.

Well, the grip-shifters probably works as well with derailleurs as with internal gear hubs, since the perform the exactly same operation: move a cable a certain distance, then stop and lock. But does grip-shifters work as well a triggershifters? Perhaps a matter of personal preference, but not a choice to make with a Nexus 8 hub.

Actually people have real problems arguing my points, weight, price, friction, number of gears, the wide variety of shifter options, riding positions (bars), ease of maintenance (eg. QR's versus nuts).

Let me try to explain what puzzles me:
I have no problem understanding, that weight may not be as important as other factors. So an argument that goes like this:
"I choose heavy tires(disadvantage) to gain less punctures(advantage)."
"I choose a heavy saddle(disadvantage) for more comfort(advantage)."
"I choose light and supple racing tires(advantage) even though I may puncture more (disadvantage)."

So normal choices are often trade-off choice. You consider disadvantages and advantages of something.

I it is just that when I consider the trade-offs and gains by choosing a internal gear hub, I just can't find significant advantages by choosing a internal gear hub, that isn't based based on myths (maintenance etc).

Try to fill out the advantage part in the sentence below:
"I choose a heavy, expensive, high friction (disadvantages) internal gear hub to gain ...(advantages)."


In have no problem saying: "I like X because it is pretty, then I don't care about any other disadvantages there may be."
(aesthetic reasons can be considered and advantage)

Hub:
Shimano Tiagra FH-4400 Rear Hub – 8/9 $19.95
Shimano Deore LX Freehub 8/9 Spd $29.95 426g
Shimano Ultgera 6600 10 speed Rear Hub $79.99 407g

Derailleur:
Shimano Deore RD-M530 Rear Derailleur $39.95
Shimano 105 RD-5600 SS 10-Speed Short Cage Rear Derailleur $67.99 232 grams.

Cassette:
Shimano 105 HG70 9spd Cassette $29.95 247g
Sram PG-970 9 Speed ATB Cassette $34.95 340g

Light but expensive:
$80+$68+$30 =$178
407g+232g+247g=886g (including skewer)

Cheap:
$20+$40+$30=$90

Internal: Shimano Nexus 8 Premium SG-8R25 $199.99 1550 g (probably without nuts and axle)

Still don't think that a quality derailleur option is both cheaper and lighter? Don't live in denial.
Do you own comparisons, check out the prices where you would like to buy, check out other solutions, like the praised SRAM X-series.


You may disregard 600g as nothing important, others may disagree, but I am still puzzled what one gains by choosing an internal hub. About maintenance, I have stated my case in other posts; a squirt of oil on the derailleur once in a while is all the maintenance that is needed. Easy to do, no need to do disassemble anything. What about the gears inside the internal gear hub, do they need grease too? Yes they do, but that is a much more complicated operation, requirering a disassembling of the hub. Hey, I really don't think it is a problem, it is a cheap thing to get done at the LBS, a yearly inspection of bearings etc. is a good idea to do, no matter what kind of gearing system, but I honestly don't think that internal gear hubs on bikes that are actually used are any less maintenance intensive than a derailleur system.

Yes, true. A genuine advantage of an internal gear hub. On the other hand, internal gear hubs actually gets destroyed too. I really wish I had a digital camera, so I could show my collection of broken internal gear hubs; Shimano Inter 4. and Inter 7, and SRAM S7. All bearings was of course in a horrible condition. The Inter 4 is probably broken in the inside, since it gets stuck when turned, crunchy, gritty feeling with lots of resistance when turning. The Inter 7 lacks a metal part on the drive side. The snapped of edge is visible, but I really don't know what action the missing part performed. The hub was discarded with an otherwise working bike (cheap model though, with one of those horrible cheap front suspension systems). The bearings are in a horrible condition, since it feels gritty and uneven to turn. The SRAM S7. Don't know exactly what was wrong. The owner had tried to repair it by disassembling it, couldn't fix it, and discarded the parts taken of, before discarding the entire bike. (low end but nice MTB wo. susp.).
Perhaps some of these hubs could be repaired, but labor wages often makes such repairs difficult to perform cheap enough.
So if a rear derailleur snaps, I am down $40-$70, but if a internal gear hub brakes, I am down $150-$200 plus a wheel rebuild, or rims+spokes, lets say $235 for a wheel with a cheap rim.

I really think that a lot of people are assuming a lot of myths regarding both derailleur systems and internal gear hubs, and therefore makes their priorities on false premises.
I am not saying that internal gear hubs are bad, they perform adequately for some people as long as they are maintained.

Well, I think I have said what I wanted to say about internal gear hubs in this discussion, and probably won't post more in this thread. However, a thanks to you and everybody else in this thread, in trying to keep this a nice and civilized discussion, it has been enjoyable.

--
Regards

I think your missing an important point. Chain stretch and sprocket wear is much less important on a ss drivetrain. It matters on a cassette because if the chain stretches it will wear the commonly used sprockets. Change to one of your less used sprockets and the stretched chain starts skiping on the virtually unworn sprocket.
That doesn't matter with ss. Who cares if the chain stretches and wears the sprocket? The chain only has to mate with a single sprocket so they can happily wear together. Even when all the wear is concentrated on a single sprocket it takes a long time for the teeth to wear down so far they stop working. Unless you are willing to only use two or three sprockets on your cassette you will be replacing your cassette when the teeth have worn much less.

Also since the chainring has no shifting ramps it can also be flipped so the chain wears the oppersite side of the tooth, this means you get double the life from your chain rings. IIRC the hub sprockets can also be flipped to double the life.

Your argument would carry some weight if you could adjust your deraillered bike so on each of those sprockets you had a perfect chainline, but I don't believe you can. Chainline MATTERS.

1) I choose a hub gear that is very slightly heavier, with a very slightly higher initial outlay, with insignificant extra friction compared to a real world derailler system because I appreciate the ease with which a single sprocket and chainring can be cleaned.
2) I choose a hub gear that is very slightly heavier, with a very slightly higher initial outlay, with insignificant extra friction compared to a real world derailler system because I can still get a comparable gear range to the gear range I commonly use on a deraillered bike for commuting and even touring but only have a single shifter and never need to double shift.
3) I choose a hub gear that is very slightly heavier, with a very slightly higher initial outlay, with insignificant extra friction compared to a real world derailler system because a dishless real wheel is stronger.
4) I choose a hub gear that is very slightly heavier, with a very slightly higher initial outlay, with insignificant extra friction compared to a real world derailler system because I have no derailler hanging precariously close to the real wheel poised to cause a great deal of damage if it takes a knock.
5) I choose a hub gear that is very slightly heavier, with a very slightly higher initial outlay, with insignificant extra friction compared to a real world derailler system because the hub I use (SRAM S7) is extremely well sealed and CAN cope with all-weather commuting with zero internal maintainence.
6) I choose a hub gear that is very slightly heavier, with a very slightly higher initial outlay, with insignificant extra friction compared to a real world derailler system because I like being able to shift gear when stationary.


Just a few real benefits.......

1 - It is hilly here ...(ask max-a-mill) 3 speed will not do
2- She will not use a coaster brake ... too used to the brake levers
3- She will want to powdercoat the frame pink and slap some Hello kitty decals
4- Curious George jersey is on the way
5- Wife and I DO NOT RACE but we like stuff working right.
6- Weight is relevant .. but I will be saving it on everything but in the hub (she likes to climb ... faster)

A pretty long and fancy exit. Suffice it to say I still don't feel at all convinced of any of these points, but I don't feel the need to address them in detail. Register, perhaps, a broad-ranging and generic objection. Passers by reading the thread can find lots of good discussion, while perhaps keeping in mind that a lot of it is coming from someone who doesn't own such a hub and really doesn't like them.

Honesty compels me to say I don't have much *recent* experience with internally geared hubs, although about 15 years ago I had a 3 speed I used hard, didn't maintain, and that never failed. I know a lot more now than I did then and even at this point I don't think choosing an 8 speed for the bike I'm building up now is a bad choice.

Had I seen all these comments *before* deciding to build up the bike, would I have changed my mind? No.

Actually it is more like 300.00 when you buy the wheel and the shifting control. So this is not a cheap option.....I know brought the whole dam thing....

And then you sold me your San Jose's wheels?

You aren't going to try to talk her into getting a fixed gear to resolve all those issues are you?

Where is "here" with all the hills? I though max-a-mil was in Philadelphia? I rode five years everywhere in that city mostly with Raleigh 3 speeds or my 1950's vintage Schwinn ballon tired knee action single speed heavy weight. What hills? The Wall in Manayunk?