Wow. Feel the love....

u1st, you have reading comprehension issues I take it?

No, I think I have a pretty good grip on reading comprehension, but if I come across anyone, I’ll be sure to refer them to your support group.

That's cool, hey I have a problem remembering every persons name. I'm just not a name person.

Yeah, that is cool. Oh, and your not forgetful, just unobservant – I never gave you my name.

He said he spent $66 so far. The bike cost about $162 with tax (for me anyway). So my math says he spent around $228... not $300.

You're absolutely right, he never said he "spent" money for the shifters, apparently he's just hanging out by the mailbox everyday, waiting for the shifters he "ordered" to materialize out of the ether because of the positive energy he received from someone saying he would 'give' them to him.

That's cool, hey, lot's of people think that 'word problems' are the hardest part of basic math.

So let's just say, for arguments sake, that someone would actually expect payment for these RSX brifters. How much do you think they would go for? I'll let you check ebay for yourself, but if you can find a set for, let's say, less than $70.00, let me know. So let's see...
$162.00 (plus) $66.00 (plus) *$70.00 (equals) $298.00

I don't know... would you say that's "in the neighborhood" of $300.00?

As for his opinion when he first got the bike and thought things would break or need replaced... and now some 3000+ miles later he hasn't had to replace nearly anything....

Yet. Except the brake levers, shifters and deraileurs...but that's not my point; my point is that he had issues with nearly every component of the bike, a new bike, within 2 weeks of buying it. I think the only things he didn't mention having a problem with were the seat, seatpost and stem. And correct me if I'm wrong, but all of the complaints seemed to be centered around quality issues. That's why I stated that, while the frame may be adequate, The components do not appear to be. Whether he's gotten around to changing all those components to suit his needs yet is neither here nor there.

Personally, I've bought things before that I though wouldn't last but I needed it right then and so I bought something cheap that ultimately lasted a lot longer than I ever imagined.

How wonderful for you. Luckily, we have a state lottery for when I want to throw away money in the hopes that it will pay off big.


(which if you are a used bike guy then how do you expect to find a used bike that doesn't require some kind of servicing which you'd have to do to it? So people are incapable of doing some basic stuff to the denali but they can be experts at buying a used bike and fix it up? It makes no sense)...


You're right again, it makes no sense and I have no idea why you wrote it.
My point (that I presume you were trying to take a swing at) was that, if you know enough about bikes to be able to adjust derailleurs, brakes, shifters, re-grease hubs, and pedals, etc., you probably have the presence of mind to recognize the difference between a decent used bike and a crappy new bike. Again, my problem isn’t so much with the frame - that, at least, seems to be pretty solid - my problem is that this is being touted as a good entry level bike ,i.e., components and frame, when the components obviously need considerable attention to keep it on the road and functioning well. To put it another way, I can pull just about any old bike out of the trash and ‘make it work’, but why would I spend $150.00 for the privilege? And if you have $300 burning a hole in your pocket and you know how to perform routine maintenance and adjustments, there are much better bikes available to scratch that ‘shade-tree’ itch. Again, ride the Denali if you must while you find a decent bike that fits, but return it before 90 days is up. Keeping it is a waste of money.

anyway like many LBS-proponents I had a thing for tools due to how I was raised. I was raised to buy craftsman tools above all else because they had that policy of if you break a wrench you bring it to sears and get a free replacement. This kept me from buying some cheaper tools. Heck a lot of my tools today still are craftsman, but I've also in a pinch picked up some cheap tools from walmart and none of them have broken or given me any troubles. I had a misunderstanding of the quality of what I was buying, but what I bought lasted anyway.

First, how you were raised is irrelevant.
Secondly, your preference in tools is only slightly more relevant.
-In my opinion, the level of quality necessary in a tool (and in this case, let’s call a bike a type of tool) is dependent largely on how often that tool is used and what degree of accuracy/dependability you expect from it when you do use it. The fact that you “had a misunderstanding of the quality of what I was buying” speaks volumes. If you use it a lot and you need it to perform reliably every time, you get the highest quality tool you can reasonably afford. So, assuming you have no “misunderstanding of the quality of what [you are] buying”, you have $300 and an ability to do routine maintenance – do you buy a higher quality used tool, or an inferior new tool?
If you still choose the new tool, please come to NC and buy your lottery tickets here, the schools could always use a little more money.

So, try to open your mind a bit to reality.

Can’t argue with that logic, but I quoted it because it’s just funny to hear it from you.

Any bike is going to evenually need some new tubes and tires.

Yes, but your options for tubes are to special order them, wrap tape around the valves of a presta tube, or buy a valve adaptor or leaky extender. Great idea. Spend more money to make something you bought new work because the OEM wheelset was designed poorly. (Hmm, poor design… anyone else seeing a pattern?)
As for tires, how worn they actually were after 3k miles isn’t clear. If they were really worn after 3k miles, that would say to me that they were cheap tires to begin with.


You don't have to change the deraileurs... I still have my factory ones on there. Sure rimtape is a good buy... $10 for two wheels worth shouldn't brake the bank. Expecially compared to buying a much more expensive bike at an lbs and after that first year starting to see the charges for bike servicing.

Good point. You don’t have to change anything. Not until it breaks anyway, or gets so far out of adjustment that you stop riding it, or take it to the shop, or figure it out yourself. But, as has been pointed out, the level of components found on the Denali and similar bikes tend to need more attention to function well compared to what might be found on a higher quality used bike. Of course to realize that, you have to have no “misunderstanding of the quality of what [you are] buying”.

As to your comment about “buying a much more expensive bike at an lbs”, I should point out that I never mentioned buying a bike at a LBS. However, if anyone reading this is in that situation where they are starting at ground zero as to what makes a good bike good, and a poor bike poor, I would definitely recommend at least visiting a shop to ask questions and see exactly what levels of quality are available.

The denali is a great first road bike or a good backup bike. It would IMO make a great commuter. You can get where your going, not throw a ton of money at the bike, and you get to learn just about everything there is to know about bicycle maintenance (parktools.com is of great help!). I'd feel better learning on a $150 bike than putting $600+ into a bike and be afraid to do anything to it for fear of fubar'ing it. Which would mean spending a lot of money over the bikes life at lbs's getting service work done

Let me edit that for you:

The denali frame makes an adequate first road bike or backup bike. It would IMO make a decent commuter. You can get where your going, not throw a ton of money at the bike provided you find it in the dumpster or at a garage sale, and you get to learn just about everything there is to know about bicycle maintenance (parktools.com is of great help!). I'd feel better learning on a dumpster bike, then putting $600+ into a bike and not be afraid to do anything to it for fear of fubar'ing it. Which would mean spending very little, if any, money over the bikes life at lbs's getting service work done, because I know what a quality bike is and how to maintain it with minimal effort.

Anything else you would like to add?

The point is, your "high quality used bike..." In many markets, that's not exactly going to happen, unless you pay $200+ for it. And, you have to wait months to find it. And it'll also need parts replaced right away.

Most used bikes in my area seem to be either kids bikes, Wal-Mart bikes, or very expensive. My Schwinn World was by far the best deal I had found - and it was three models up from the bottom of the Schwinn lightweight range in 1985. The other three models were so low end, the catalog didn't even list full specs on them.

Anyway, I looked at a Denali up-close for about 15 minutes or so at Wal-Mart today... assembly was atrocious, as expected. The large chainring was bent - but it looks like that COULD have been assembly - as in, tighten some stuff, and it might un-bend. Cigtech or someone else with the Denali, could you mention how the large chainring is attached to the crank? Is it via the chain guard?

Other than the effects of that chainring being bent, and the rear brake dragging, it appeared to not suck at all, though. I will admit, I'm considering it. And, it felt much lighter than my Schwinn. (My Schwinn is supposedly only 28 pounds, though...)

Actually, I believe I said higher quality, but I understand your point. If you're strictly looking locally, you won't find a selection of perfect bikes popping up everyday in the local newspaper. But, if you are patient, have done your homework as far as size, intended use, etc., you'll find what you need. Like I said, if someone absolutely has no choice but to ride, and they need something right this second, go ahead and get the walmart bike, but take it back to the store before it becomes a money pit. That $162 will come in handy when you do find what your looking for.

That is another valid approach, seeing as they've got the 90 day return policy...

All of my bikes are money pits.

She's too old to get into "cute pink ones", she's had one of those when she was 5, then when she was 8 we bought her a Colnago...just kidding, a Walmart special for $80; now she's 12 and overpowering her current bike as well as needing repair, plus she wants a road bike like her dad so she can faster.

She (and I did too) actually liked the Schwinn Varsity better then the Denali, but of course the Varsity cost $50 more at $200 but that's ok with me. My only real complaint is that both bikes are made in China, but for that price range I don't have choice.

Neither bike are what I consider to be lightweight, but my daughter is only 12 going on 13 in September, so paying another $500 for a lighter bike at this time would not make sense. I'm still waiting to see if she will even enjoy riding enough to get her a $700+ bike, but the Varsity for now will suit her way better then the heavy clunker with fat tires she has now. SO this will either be a birthday or Christmas present, wife and I haven't decided yet.

I will say for a comuter I've had great luck with the denali. It works, it's not perfect, or pretty, but it does the job. It was my first road bike in years, and I've put over 100 miles on it since I got the odometer, not alot by some standards but for a comuter 5.5 miles to and from work, I'm pleased and impressed.

From what I've seen at my LBS, believe it or not most of their bikes (at least the ones under $600) are made in China. :eek:

I have to agree with you on this one... no matter what bike it is or quality, there is usually something that I want to add in terms of accessories, seat, components or whatever... every bike that I have owned and used regularly, I had to "dial-in" what I want...

as far as tubes go, I just go to my lbs and get the 700x23c tubes with presta valves (need the 40mm...)
and that works fine. no need for any adapters or tape or whatever... the nice thing about prestas are that they have a nut that you put on that seats the valve into the rim... now I do use a "schrader adaptor" because the cheaper pumps handle schrader valves...

I nearly went with the varsity over the denali myself... I like the look of the varsity more but I went with the denali because.

1. Higher grade aluminum frame. It's even higher grade than a lot of the more expensive lower end bikes at lbs's. I'm losing weight (down to 195 now, was 208 when I bought my denali) but I'm still a heavier guy so less frame flex is a good thing.

2. 21 gears. The varsity has only 14. I don't know how limited the varsity is in gearing though... it may make better use of those 14 than the denali's 21. But hey I couldn't ignor the addition gears since I live in the mountainous and more hilly parts of the country and that factored into my purchase.

3. More aero wheels and even the frame seemed more aero. A small thing but every bit counts. The varsity frame though doesn't look bad at all.

4. Weight wise seemed like a draw. Both bikes are around 26 pounds. But the denali came with a water bottle cage and had brazons (sp?) incase I wanted a standard rack... while the varsity didn't come with the watter bottle cage but it came with toe straps. Denali though also came with a shield around the outer most gear up front.. the varisty had the gear exposed. So less chance of chain rubbing on the denali.

5. $50 less. This meant i could spend more on gear :D

6. I was thinking of the wife as well. She's shorter (i'm 6' even) so neither bike could she use. But walmart atleast sells the womens version of the denali online... they don't sell the womens version of the Varsity. So silly as that may seem, it factored into the decision. Hopefully your daughter is tall or you've got a source for a womens 26" varsity,

7. I may be wrong on this one... not sure.. but the seat post on the denali is close topped. So no water gets in there in the event of raining... where as the varisty, if I recall, was open top. Sure I could cork this myself, but the less i have to do the better.

8. Last, and this is just bringing it home for me... I liked the shifters and seat on the denali better. The Varsity had these paddle type shifters... but the Denali kept it simple with numbered dial type shifters. Many people probably wouldn't consider this a positive for the denali, but I have a friction type shifter on my mtb and it's easier just dialing to the next gear without thinking about any extra adjustments. So simpler seemed better.

I think either bike though is a good step up for anyone of any age. Getting back into bicycling, using one of these bikes as a commuter, ... whatever the reason, it seems there's a good market for these bikes of all ages (as long as they are tall enough).

I would buy the presta/schrader adapter collar. If slides into the inside of your rim. It protects the tube from expanding into the shrader sized hole around the valve and then rubbing through the tube causing a flat. They're only 2 bucks for two.

OK, I never said that the tires where bad. I like the Kenda Kwest. I have not had but one item get through the tread to cause a flat. And that was like 5000+ miles on the tires. All the flats where caused by the rim tape. When did I say the chain was bad? The chain is a KMC. Which is a good chain. The only problem I have with the Pedals is that they are not very wide.

I have 5865.3 miles on the Denali to date. At 5200 miles or so I change out the Deraileurs. Now if I am only upgrading then Denali after 5200 miles, I think that proves the Deanile is a good commuter bike. After all the stock parts are still working, I am just upgrading. Not replacing due to brake down. Oh and the handle bars are still stock and have not given me any reason to replace them.

You were able to get over 5800 miles on that KMC chain? I'm astounded, what type of KMC version was it? If it was the KMC "Z" chain, stamped with "Z" on the links, I trashed that type out in under 500 miles. What's you maintenance secret?

One agreed, but I disagree. My bike, other then tires and lube and of course overhauls has never had a mechanical failure of a part except for the front derailleur band snapped. I can think of more expensive money pit hobbies like my cars of which I own a 67 Ford Galaxy 500 Conv and a 79 Chevrolet Camaro Z28, car hobbies are money pits; heck for that matter newer cars with their high sale prices and low resale prices, and their high maintenance and repair costs-there's a HUGE money pit. And what about golf? Just green fees alone are money pits, not alone all the stuff you need. Computers have become a hobby for a lot of folk, I know plenty of people that just on computers alone have spent more then most people I know who bike and that doesn't include the hundreds if not thousands of dollars spent on software! Some people have a hobbies of restoring homes, this can be a tremendous money pit. I have a friend who has a airplane hobby...you don't even want go there!

It's the China problem I'm having a hard time with. I now seriously thinking about going on E-Bay and try to find a small frame size older bike that's in excellent condition that was made elsewhere.

Video Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbVY5teBzlg
Another version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBp5ag6SJH4

The chain is a KMC Z. Most people run with a 60 to 90 cadence. Which puts a lot of stress on the drive system. With a easer take off and riding at 100 to 115 cadence you put less strain on the drive system. I keep a close eye on the chain ware. I clean and lube it every week. Right after a wet ride I dry it and relube. I also keep the sand and dirt out of the gears. Other than that I just ride. I did get a replacement chain. But have not needed to replace the chain yet.

I suppose with the right know-how it's possible to keep any level of bike up and running and doing what you need. From what I have gathered reading this thread CigTech is not claiming that the Denali is a fine work of engineering, but is at least adequate to the task for the money.

I don't shop at Wal-Mart, and I also believe you can get more than 5 times the bike for around $500 at a LBS.

My wife and I saw one of these the other day. My wife knows very little about the mechanical aspects of a bike, or even what level of componentry is "good". Ask her the difference between Dura-Ace and 105 and you'll probably get recognition on the order of "Don't TdF racers use Dura-Ace?" Anyhow...I saw the bike and without telling her what it was asked her to take a look at it on the rack. She, without knowing much about the "nuts and bolts" looked it over and turned her nose up at it, stating "What kind of bike is that anyway? It doesn't look very good." This was followed by general commentary about cheap looking chunky parts, etc.

If even the mechanically inept wife sees issues...

I am sorry, but could you explain a bit more again why a higher cadence can give such a dramatic extension in chain life? I simply am failing to see the logic here.

Higher cadence for a given speed means less torque for the same power. (ft-lbf torque * RPM) / 5252 = horsepower. And, lower torque means less wear on the chain.

But, I doubt that that difference in cadence will give you that much less wear. I'd attribute it more to the careful MAINTENANCE of the chain, and being careful on starts (where torque on the chain is by far the highest.)

Thanks for answering that dhtooefr. Ture torque kills chains faster then any thing. But with all the sand down here you need to keep the chain clean and lubed.

Quick question... because I'm still tossing around the idea of a Denali here... (although finances won't allow it quite yet)

With the twist shifters there... is it possible to put on interruptor levers?

I find the suicide levers on my current bike quite handy, and would like to have something on the top of the bar for when I don't want to ride in the drops.

Just a note on the tubes. For grins I tried just regular tubes with no extension valve. Though it's a bit shorter there is still more than enough valve to work with. You don't need to get them any longer but for 3 bucks special ordering them isn't a horrid option either. I've only got 112 miles on it since the odometer and it'll be a while before I catch up to cig but I'm no bike expert and haven't ridden in years this bike is fine for a new cyclist with limited/no wrench knollege. My rear derailer has been replaced, as well as the rim tape. The derailer due to a crash but I only upgraded to tourney so it's still in the same ball park.

With mine. I don't like to fuss with the valve. If your not carefull while inflating the short valve. Then it could cause the tire not to seat right into the rim. Which will let the inter tube expand out between the tire and rim. And then you'll have a blow out. So make sure the tire in seated right in the rim before you take it to a high PSI.